Legacy Interview with – Ps Andy and Penny May (WTB)
16 April 2022 Legacy Interview with Pastor Andy and Penny May
Scripture Reference: 1 Corinthians 14:26 (NKJV); Psalm 46:10 (NKJV); John 14:12 (NKJV); Romans 5:17 (NKJV); Exodus 33:20 (NKJV); Psalm 24:3-4 (NKJV); Romans 8:30 (NKJV); Jeremiah 30:17 (NKJV); Psalm 31:5 (NKJV); Exodus 15:26 (NKJV); Mark 42:45 (NKJV); 1 John 4:17 (NKJV); Exodus 33:18-23 (NKJV); Romans 8:37 (NKJV).
This morning is a great privilege for me. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen Andy and Penny, you know, and they’ve always been in and around my life for many years and every now and again, some years would pass and then there would be a contact. And over the last short while the Lord put it on Andy’s heart, my uncle Andy, put it on Andy’s heart to actually just start making more connection with me. And of course, I have a very busy life. He lives in Cape Town, they live in Cape Town, their whole family lives in Cape Town. And so I had planned to go and do something in Cape Town and that changed and I planned to go and visit them. And that changed. And so as I began to pray about it, I felt by the leading of the Holy Spirit that this camp meeting weekend would give us an opportunity to go over some things and to hear some things that would come out by the Holy Spirit.
So there are things that are going to come out of his mouth today that I don’t know. I mean, just coming, just before we came here, he talked about a missionary that we both knew that stayed in my dad’s house. Of course, I was still a very young boy when I met him and so my interaction with him was, as an eight year old, would be. Very simple. But nevertheless the man, the presence of the man, and the power of his commitment with God impacted me even as an eight year old boy, you know, and so, this morning, he made reference to the relationship that he had with him. So I didn’t know that, and so I asked him, and we are going to talk about that today. So we are going to just flow with the Holy Spirit. We have got a little structure that we’re going to try and see if we can stick with the structure. But the Holy Spirit can do whatever He wants at any given time. You know, and that’s the wonder of it.
To give you some background, the most interaction that I had with Andy was when he was the associate Pastor in my dad’s church, and sometimes they used to sing together and he used to be the lead Pastor if you like, for youth camps that we used to have in Fouriesburg, naby Clarence area, jy weet. Those days Clarence wasn’t even on the map like it is today, but Fouriesburg was there and we used to have camps there and God would move on those youth camps, you know. And he drove me down there one day in which was a state of the art vehicle, one of those Volvo’s, we were talking about it, a white Volvo with a red leather interior and it had that back that went like that. And some of you that are old enough will know what I’m talking about. All of you youngsters, you have no idea what I’m talking about, but it was a state of the art vehicle at that time and I felt very privileged that I could go down to the camp riding in the back of his car, you know.
So there’s a lot of stuff that we are going to try and focus more on the spiritual things and more on the relationships that God had established in our lives in his life, his time with my dad and some of what Penny has gone through. And if the opportunity allows it, we will, Penny can share her testimony of also how God healed her from a stroke that she had. And so there’s lots for us to cover. And we’ll just see whether we just keep going, or whether we have a break in between. But I’m expecting that as some things come out from the legacy, that the Holy Spirit will speak, that there will be an encounter for all of us, with the Lord. Amen. So let me introduce you to Pastor Andy and Penny May. Please come forward, won’t you give them a hand everybody. [Congregation clapping hands.]
Pastor John: Are you good there, Andy? Good. Praise the Lord. Don’t these people look fine?
Pastor Andy: Beautiful people.
Pastor John: Hallelujah. So perhaps we can open in prayer and then we will ask them to start talking. Let’s pray together. Thank You Lord, that in these moments that we have here today, in this interview, that You will speak and that even though we are talking about relationships and things that have happened in the past. We know that in Your timeline of the heavenly realm, those things that happened in our human past are things that in Your eternal timeline, is as real as yesterday or right now. And so, we along with the great cloud of witnesses, we bear witness of who You are in our lives and who You have been in our lives. And so we ask You Holy Spirit that You will use our minds and use our mouths and You will bring things to our remembrance and You will cause us to have a flow of the Spirit, it will minister both life to us and to everybody that will hear this interview in the future. We thank You for it, Lord, in Jesus Name. Amen. Hallelujah.
So perhaps, because you are going to do quite a bit of the talking. Penny perhaps you can start, and just talk about yourself as a mom, as a spiritual person in the church and all of the personal things.
Pastor Penny: Yeah, I wasn’t prewarned about the questions so I have to give it a little bit of thought. But I didn’t grow up as a born again Christian. In our home we were God fearing, we went to church, we did all the right things. And then in my standard nine year, I gave my life to the Lord. And I phoned an aunt, or no my mother’s aunt, who had been praying for our family. And prayer is important and I’ll give you a bit of background to that, too. So I phoned her and I said, “Where must we go to church?” Because the church that we were going to although they preached the gospel, and we were teaching Sunday school there; my mother and my sister and myself. My dad. [Laughing.] Yeah, he came later. Yeah, so she told us to go to an Assemblies of God church in Norwood, and that’s where I met Andy. He was in the choir. And this wonderful looking guy in the choir, who had, I must tell you all the girls, he was a very eligible bachelor and had all the girls chasing him. You can ask John. Yeah. So yeah.
Pastor John: He had to seek counsel from my dad because all the girls. [Congregation laughing.]
Pastor Penny: So it took me four years to catch him and reel him in. But I got him. [Congregation laughing.] Yeah. All right. So then we got married 46 years ago. The end of this year, it will be 47, God willing, and yeah, we’ve served the Lord together. Quite a few churches. We have three lovely children. And praise God. They also serve God too.
Pastor John: And you have some grandchildren, too.
Pastor Penny: And we have some grandchildren. I should have given you photos of the grandchildren. I love to brag about them. Yeah. Yeah, it’s a privilege to serve the Lord. And yeah, we served with Reg and Villa. And it was a privilege to know that the Lord chooses anybody. You don’t have to be a saint, because I certainly wasn’t that. I hadn’t grown up, I didn’t know. In fact, I don’t even think at that stage, when I gave my life to the Lord, whether I knew whether Abraham or Moses came first in the Bible. I knew the stories, we’d heard them at Sunday school. But it’s amazing how God can still use you. And still…
Pastor John: Yeah, he can do something.
Pastor Penny: Yeah. So I have, with Andy’s help, we had three children. And yeah, as I say they’re all serving God, I thank God for that because in today’s society, it’s not easy to have children and grandchildren and we’ve been hearing a bit of that, what the devil is trying to do, but our God is good. And He’s able to do abundantly above what we can ask or ever imagine. So we’ve had a very exciting life. We’ve been in Cape Town now 22 years, helping in a church there and we went down as the pastoral couple. And that’s my heart. I have a heart for people. I want to see people be overcomers in Christ, I want to see people rise to their full potential in Christ. I want people to know that God loves them.
Pastor John: Yes. Amen.
Pastor Penny: Anymore?
Pastor John: Thank you. It’s a wonderful start. Thank you, Penny. So, Andy, will you talk about how your family, your background from as way back as you want to start but I will. [Laughing.]
Pastor Andy: I promise not to tell you anything about him that you don’t want to hear.
Pastor John: There is nothing. [Laughing]
Pastor Andy: Ek kom van Krugersdorp. I was born in a house with his dad, where the title deeds were signed by Paul Kruger. So, ons is deel van die geskiedenis van Suid-Afrika. How’s that? I was just thinking about camp meeting when I was listening to Pastor Sharon, reading about camp meetings. When I was a little boy, 7,8,9 years old, we lived in Krugersdorp and we used to go through to Johannesburg to Fairview Assemblies of God. I think Pastor John had been there, and that’s where I gave my heart to the Lord at the age of 9. You know, I found out, two days ago, that Smith Wigglesworth got saved when he was 8 or 9.
Pastor John: Really?
Pastor Andy: Yeah. So I’ve been a Christian, what nearly 70 years now. You never stop learning. Can I say that? Don’t ever think you’ve arrived. There’s always much more. And I think Pastor John will mention some of that just now. As we came here this morning, it was wonderful, the vibe in your church, to me and I’ve been in, we’ve probably served in about 6 churches. You’ve got something special here. The way you guys worship and all the new songs and this gentleman here that gets carried away every now and then.
Pastor John: No, not me. [Laughing.]
Pastor Andy: You know what? He’s passionate about what he does and if you’re not passionate about your church or your marriage, you’ve got a housekeeping arrangement. And who wants to live like that? Life is exciting. When we were coming here today, I don’t know why it flashed into my mind. In the Old Testament, when God, when the children of Israel were going through the 40 years in the wilderness, they used to pitch the tabernacle, which, where God lived in the ark. And they had three tribes, three tribes, three tribes, three tribes. So, and the glory of the Lord would come down in the middle and I think all the tents used to face the middle.
Pastor John: Yeah.
Pastor Andy: So, then any Israelite woke up in the middle of the night, he’d see the pillar of fire. And if he woke up during the day, there was a pillar of cloud. But the message for us today, in our day and age. You know, to a lot of Christians and I mean, I’ve met lots of Christians. To a lot of Christians, church is peripheral to their lives.
I’ll never forget one of the leaders of, we’re part of the Assemblies of God church. One of our leaders said, “You know, to a lot of Christians, God is a hobby.” Now, hobbies are lovely things to have, if you want to build airplanes, or if you want to go diving or whatever, but you fit it in when you can. He says, “God’s not a hobby. He’s the center of your life.” And it’s such a thrill to see all of you here today, that you have taken the trouble to come here on an Easter weekend for a camp meeting. And I got saved at a camp meeting in 1952. [So, you work out how old I am]. But you know what is exciting? The older I get, the more I want to know more. I mean, particularly when, I’m 78 now.
I think, “Lord, how much time have I got left?” And He keeps saying to me, “The best is yet to come.” You must have that attitude to life. Hey? You’re not coming in to land. We’re taking off. You know, you’re talking all about missiles. I thought wow, I’m a missile. [Laughing]. And then, so we grew up together. His dad, I’m an only child. So I told everybody, I’m still a bit of a brat. His dad and his dad sister, we grew up together in this massive house that I told you about. Whole family, we had three families living together, and to the massive yard and we used to play. I don’t know if you understand all the afrikaans games. I used to play kennetjie and giffie and slang and, you know, that’s how I grew up. And his dad could always climb higher in the tree than I could. Really, I’m not kidding, I don’t think that tree is still there. But eventually, when I grew up, and I got a bit bigger, I could climb that high in the tree. His dad and I climbed on the garage roof and made a parachute out of a sheet. [Congregation laughs].
PastorJohn: Sorry, I didn’t know that. That’s where I got parachuting from.
Pastor Andy: Yeah, but the problem was we hit the ground before the parachute came of the roof. [congregation laughing] His dad and I used to go, and you know what a foofie slide is? I don’t think there is an English word for foofie slide. Unfortunately. But his dad fell off the foofie slide and broke his arm. So, I didn’t break anything but I mean, we got into some mischief. His dad taught me to ride my bicycle. I had a little bicycle about this big. It is called a fairy cycle, it had tiny little wheels. And he used to put me on this thing and push me and then let me go. I go until I fell over.
So, we had a lot of fun together. And we traveled. I traveled with his dad and his mom. We traveled nearly 22,000 miles around America. Through 31 states. I could tell you stories about that trip forever. But
Pastor John: I think, I think it’s worth mentioning, the Pensacola and how you arrived at the church that became quite meaningful. Yeah.
Pastor Andy: He’s just, he’s just like his dad. When I hear him preach. His dad used to say, “I’m coming in to land,” and then he takes off again. And then we land three times, until eventually we just flying around the airplane.
Pastor John: I’ve got a new word. If I’m flying, I’m just telling you I’m flying.
Pastor Andy: What do they call it, circuits and bumps?
Pastor John: Yeah.
Pastor Andy: But we were…it was your grandfather that gave us, I think it was a thousand rand, we bought an automobile at Teen Challenge, you know, Dave Wilkinson and The Cross and the Switchblade. We went to that place, a very tough place. It had barbed wire fences around it. When you came to the gate, you had to push a button and they check who you are. I mean, Brooklyn, in New York at that stage was dangerous. In fact, our introduction to traveling, traveling off in our car, and a guy in a Cadillac ran into the back of us. So, I mean, Brooklyn was something else. But so we spent we a lot of time there and then we took this car and we traveled from, from right down through the southern states, right through.
Well, anyway, what we’ve tried to do, his dad was studying church organization, so we wanted to go to different churches. I’ll never forget one church we went to. It had a big Hammond organ, and this organ, they keep playing it right through the service. And the Pastor was, he really was loud. And there was an elderly lady sitting in the front here and right in the middle of all this noise she went to sleep.
Pastor John: Ek check julle! [laughing]
Pastor Andy: And he is playing the organ here. And then all of a sudden, he introduces Pastor Red Bendixen from South Africa. And Red was, he was, pardon me if I don’t call him Pastor Redge. I never ever call him Pastor Redge. I respect him deeply.
He, he realized that these people were all going to sleep because of the noise. So he got up and he said, “It’s nice to be here.” You know, they all woke up. They said,” What did you say?” And then he preached. And the way we lived on that whole trip was, and some of the pastors would do this. They’d make your dad stand in front with a basket, and then wait for the people to come up with offering in the basket. It was most, most embarrassing, but that’s how we lived. And we traveled in that automobile,it was about thirteen and a half thousand miles.
But anyway, the way we used to look for churches was, he’d take the telephone directory. So in our coming into Pensacola, which, that was 1968, it was the middle of the Vietnam War. And there were American aircraft carriers in the bay. And the pastor we were staying with, we arrived in his church, and it was right in the middle of his service because we didn’t know what time that service started. And we heard them, they were speaking in tongues and interpretation. And then after the service he said, “Well, where did you guys come from?” So, we just said, “From South Africa.” He said, “Well,come stay with us.” You’re talking about hospitality, Southern hospitality. They were fantastic. And he was part of what was then the Methodist Church. And then he had now become Pentecostal, and they kicked him out of the church.
So, he was in this little house in the middle of the forest, where he was conducting services. He was one of the United States Navy’s Blue Angels. That’s an aerobatic team. If you want to Google Blue Angels. These guys fly six aircrafts in formation like this. (Gestures with his hand how they rotate) So, they took us to survival camps. If they bailed out in Vietnam, you can eat this snake but don’t eat that snake. And it was fascinating stuff. But what a legacy and then we went to Baton Rouge, which is in Louisiana.
Pastor John: But he did something for my dad, that you were telling me about that actually ended up becoming a record.
Pastor Andy: A record ja. You know how musical Pastor Redge was? So this guy had a studio, and he got a couple of musicians together, you know, like Garth does, who can play anything. I can read music but I can’t play like Garth, I wish I could. And he made a record there, which I’ve still got a copy of it. So then we traveled through, all through the southern states. We went into San Francisco. We went up through San Francisco through Oregon, through Washington into British Columbia.
I’ll never forget at that stage that car was nearly worn up. The exhaust pipe was loose and it was dragging on the road. So it looked like a jet plane. There were sparks coming out of the back as this thing it was…you can imagine seven liters without an exhaust pipe. It sounded like a whole squadron of jets coming in. Because Redge had to preach, he had to preach back in Kitimat, which is the closest point on the North American continent to Japan. The two biggest American score aluminium, aluminum, the two biggest aluminum plants in the world were there. I mean, I could go on forever.
Pastor John: Yeah. But well, I think, I think perhaps I can ask you about your experience. And you were probably already part of our lives then Penny, when we were in, in the German school hall in Hillbrow?
Pastor Andy: Yes.
Pastor John: And perhaps you can tell us just your experience of what was happening when we moved out of Summit House into the German school hall, and the kind of spirit of revival and anointing that was happening in the church at that time.
Pastor Penny: What had happened was that the church that Andy and I met in, the pastor at the time, sold the church and pocketed the money. So, now we had a congregation.
Pastor Andy: This is church skinder.
Pastor Penny: Now we had a congregation without a church hall. So, we moved into a Summit house, as John said, which was an office block in Braamfontein. And let me tell you, it didn’t stop the people coming. We all had to now go up in the lift to the third floor. You can imagine getting 200 people up in the lift every Sunday and back down again. And then we moved to the old German Lutheran school hall. Well…
Pastor John: In hillbrow,
Pastor Penny: It wasn’t the state of the art type of building, I can tell you that. That’s probably all I’m going to say. But you could find, in the corridors on a Sunday morning, and when you came early, there would be a heap of newspapers, and they would be one of the dronkies who’d gone to sleep. They’re waiting, but you know what, some of them even came to church sometimes. So praise God. We were there and God just moved mightily in those meetings. I reckon we got three, four hundred people.
Pastor John: At least.
Pastor Penny: Yeah, at least three, four hundred people, where we had Redge as our Pastor, and Andy associate. Yeah, it was because of Andy that he called Redge in, to come and take over when we didn’t have a pastor.
Pastor John: Yeah.
Mrs. Penny. So yeah.
Pastor John: Thank you.
Pastor Penny: Andy was instrumental in making that happen.
Pastor Andy: I was a deacon. And we didn’t have a pastor, because as Penny said the pastor sold the church and he took off with the money. Can you believe it? And then I got a hold of Redge my cousin, and he became our senior Pastor. I just wanted to tell you a story about the German Lutheran hall. It goes back to the time of Paul Kruger. Further down in Joburg in De Villiers street, I think it is, was the Jewish Rabbi. And the Jewish Rabbi went to Paul Kruger, who was the overseer of the whole area van die Transvaal and he said, “Why do you give the German Lutheran’s twice as much land as you gave to the Jews?” He says, “Because you only believe in half of the Bible.” [Congregation laughing]. You talk about die wysheid van die ou president. That really happened, hey. I thought that was funny.
But we had, we had a wonderful time there. We used to get alcoholics coming in off the street. I mean, we started a home for alcoholics. And it was hard work, hey. I mean, I would give them a pair of shoes, and then they went to sell it and go and buy booze. And I remember one night one of them got violent, and another one of my friends that we still in contact with had to take a brick and knock him out. So they could sort of curb him down. But anyway, we had some stories.
Pastor John: Quinton and Paul I don’t want you using bricks, please. [Congregation laughing]
Pastor Andy: But that really happened. So you know, church is a lot of fun isn’t it? Don’t ever be a board Christian. Because then you got the wrong Jesus.
Pastor John: That’s right.
Pastor Andy: He was full of ideas and creativity. And he’s like that, so you’re blessed.
Pastor John: Praise the Lord. Do you want to say something, Penny? No,
Pastor Penny: I was just gonna say that. It was an opportunity where we have open ministry. And I think that grew the young people in the church because we would say that you could have two or at the most three tongues and interpretations. And yeah, people would come so prepared, ready to give us…The Word says we should be so prepared to give a Word from the Lord, that we had to say, okay, that’s three, we’ve had enough, you can’t talk anymore. And then they had open ministry as well, where you would come prepared with a Word from God, a teaching, and they would start at the back there and race to the front. And the first three to the front, then got the three positions. But it builds a desire for the Word. And Redge as you know, is an amazing teacher. So he inspired that, seeking and digging in the Word for yourself. Seeking and looking in the Word for yourself, to minister to other people. There was a contagious spirit there that you just wanted more and more of the Word. Yeah.
Pastor John: So that’s what I was telling you. If you remember, I’ve been telling you all that when I grew up as a young guy, I was always ready on a Sunday morning to preach. Because there was this opportunity that was in the Assemblies of God Church at that time. That’s the way church was run. And, you know, a lot of very accurate doctrine kind of issues that were established at that time, some of them good and some not so good. But praise the Lord, we got through it.
Pastor Andy: Could I just endorse what Pastor John is saying? Something I think, very important for every church member. First Corinthians 14 verse 26 says, When you meet together, you come with something to give. I’m not picking on anybody. But what are you comeing with to give this morning? It’s not that I come here just to preach or to talk. I must…He said, you must come with a Psalm, with a hymn, with a spiritual song, with a prophecy, with a revelation. In other words when I go to church now, and we’ve been praying for you guys for a long time now that some kind of supernatural lightning will struck today. Amen. But when I go to church, it says you come with something to give, don’t ever leave the church service and say, “I’ve got nothing out of that.” You know why? Because I didn’t come for something to give. Am I making sense?
Pastor John: Yes.
Pastor Andy: It’s an attitude of I have come to bless you. Even if I’m sitting right at the back and I’ve only been here for one week. I’ve come to bless you. It’s in the Bible. Amen.
Pastor John: Yes. I mean, I think that’s, I mean, that’s an important thing, that when you come to church, you come to say, “Let my spirit…” And we’ve talked about this a lot. “Let the Spirit of Christ that’s in me, let it minister to someone else.” You come to give a smile, you come to give…and the Lord might tell you to do other things, give a word of encouragement, whatever it is, you know. And if you come with that attitude that I come to give and to receive, then we have a healthy, life in the Lord. Because it puts a responsibility on you to actually be prepared to come to church and not just come to church to say, “Well, let’s see how well Pastor John is going to perform today, how many times he is going to land and take off and land and take off.”
So Andy, I know there’s some things that you want to share and you want to talk about “Be still.” And there’s a scripture that you have. So if you can put that scripture Psalm 46, if you can put it on the screen.
Pastor Andy: Psalm 46 verse 10. I don’t know about you. I mean, I’ve been a Christian, as I said, nearly seventy years now. But there’s one verse that the Lord has and I say this carefully hammered into me. And whenever I’m in trouble, or I’ve lost the plot in life, I’ve got to go back to that scripture, and read it again. I’ve got dozens of Bibles at home and every time I’ve underlined Psalm 46 verse 10. And all Psalm 46 verse 10 says, Be still and know that I’m God. PSALM 46:10 [NKJV] But the English word for “still” is untranslatable. It means to stop striving. If you’re a striving Christian, you’re not still. It means to relax. You know, I think you were talking about this last night…Pastor Jerry said, you got to sit still…And quite often the Lord doesn’t want me to be running around, He wants me to be still.
So let me say this to you. It is the most difficult thing in my life to be still. Because I’m wired up. But I think we come from a family of wired up preachers. What are we going to do next? The Lord says, “Just come and minister to Me.” You know, one thing we can do in church quite often is we come here, we love praying, we love preaching, we love singing. The Lord says, “Whatever you do, you’re doing it for Me.” So to take that word, it means to let go. It means to let it be. The one translation says; come in out of the traffic. It means to be silent. One of the hardest things I’ve learned is it means to stop asking questions. I don’t know about you, but I am forever saying, “Lord, why this and why that?” In our church that I’ve just three of my best friends passed away in the last two months. And I prayed for them every day. And I said, “Lord, what am I not believing properly? What’s up, Lord?” But be still has got a result to it. “When you are still, you will know that I’m God.” And I got stuck on that one, and I’ll do this in a minute.
All the movers and shakers in the Bible, all of them, had one ambition, They want to know God. And I mean I sat and I sort of browsed through Bible history. Abraham was God’s friend. God said, “I want to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because those guys are bad. Shall I tell my friend Abraham?” And then you know Abraham negotiated, you know the story. Moses. The Bible says that Moses was the meekest man who ever lived, obviously next to Jesus.
Pastor John: Yeah.
Pastor Andy: Exodus 33. The Lord is now talking. You know, it actually says that the Lord spoke to him face to face. I can’t quite explain it. Because at one stage, the Lord said, “You can’t see My face.”
Pastor John: Yeah.
Pastor Andy: He talked to him like the two of them are chatting. Hey, you know, if you were listening to what Pastor John was saying last night, “Hey, do you chat to the Lord?” Do you know that He’s interested in where you shop? He’s interested in whether you like hamburgers, He’s interested in whether you like milkshakes. He’s interested in keeping your car clean. I’m just…
Pastor John: He is interested in you not having milkshakes and not having hamburgers.
Pastor Andy: He is interested if you fast and pray too. But He’s interested in everything that we do. So there’s no little thing. You know, to a lot of people God lives here, He doesn’t. He is going home with you. He said, “I’ll never leave you.” Pastor John was saying if you lived in Ukraine, I mean, I’m a student of World Wars. I’ve watched the French people running away from the weermag, pushing kids in prams and carrying babies and everything they’ve got just to get away from the enemy. And we’ve got an enemy. We heard it last night so vividly. It wants to steal, kill and destroy. He’s of course behind World War I and World War II. He’s behind all the wars we’ve ever fought in. You know why? Because he wants to kill us.
Pastor John: That’s right.
Pastor Andy: You know, very simply the reason I thought of, why does the devil hate you? Because he said and we heard it here last night. He said, ”I will be like the Most High.” The Most High said, “No, no, there’s just two of us here and I’m not leaving.” And Jesus said, “I saw him fall like lightning.” You know why lightning? Lucifer is the Latin word for light. That’s why Las Vegas and all these joints are so lit up they’re beautiful, aren’t they? Light attracts you, it’s like a moth when you light a candle, it gets burned.
So, be still and know that I’m God, it’s been a verse that’s all my life. I wanted to finish this. King David in Psalm 27. It says one thing, that’s another word I want to share with you that’s meaningful to me is “focus.” David says, Lord one thing I desire of You that I can dwell in your house to be…the Old English Bible says beauty it means to behold your perfection, and inquire in your temple and ask You questions. And then, of course, the Apostle Paul. He said, I’ve only got one ambition.
I want to know Him. And you mentioned that last night and the power of Your resurrection. So, you know, that’s what I got out of…I just want to quote, years ago in our church, he head of the Assemblies of God in the UK, David Sherman came out, and he was talking about Christians resting. Now most of us work hard. So we can go on holiday. He said, “No, no, you rest, you work from a position of rest.” We all rest, from the position of work. It’s back to front. Because if I’m still and know God, I work from a position of rest. Take that to heart please, because if you’re agitated right now, and sort of battling with life, you’re not resting. So that verse, all my life Pastor John, it is hammering into me.
Pastor John: That is a very, very powerful concept that you work from a position of rest. I mean, I think it’s essential if you’re working from a position of performance, and you’re working from a position of achievement, and results, you can’t rest. Because you have to be driven towards the end result. But if you are in a position of rest, that means your trust is in God. So again, it’s in our language that we talk in this church, it’s not that you don’t spend energy, God has given us energy to expand. And so that’s work. But you do it from, from a position where your energy has already been given to God. And when He’s first, then you rest in the way that you spend your energy. So work is, as I’ve said to you guys before, work is your worship. And it can only be your worship, when you have that rest in God and you have that trust that is in God. You know, I’d like to ask Penny. Penny over the years that you have been in so many different churches and, and experienced many different leadership styles, and…How did you adapt as number one, a congregation member and associate pastors, you know, family? And then how did you kind of cope with all of that?
Pastor Penny: It’s quite a question to answer because I think a lot of us, I looked for a spiritual mother, when I gave my life to the Lord, because my mother came to the Lord after me. So, as much as I love my mother dearly, and she’s, she’s a real, she’s still alive. She’s 90. And she has prayed our immediate family, all of them. We all got together for her 90th birthday. There were about 35 of us, and she had prayed most of us into the kingdom of God. But in the church, I believe it’s very important to have role models. And so I looked for role models. Because when I married Andy, I can’t remember whether you were associate Pastor – I think you were,
Pastor John: He was.
Pastor Penny: Yeah, you were associated Pastor then. So for me to go as a new Christian into that role. I looked. And I know that Villa was a role model to me, John’s mother and late mother, and yeah, she was an amazing lady. I looked for people who would be a role model. And I think it’s important, especially for the young people, find someone that you can talk to, you mustn’t talk to everybody. So when I had a problem, I don’t go and tell everybody about my problem, you know, so and so whoo. In fact, it was something that our children pointed out to us years later, because a friend of one of my daughters said to her, we can see that your family didn’t go home and have the Pastor for lunch and pull him apart. And so we’ve tried to live by that in our lives that, being especially in a position of leadership, we had to learn about confidentiality.
Pastor John: Yes.
Pastor Penny: And we had to learn that, hang on if someone comes to us, and especially because I love the pastoral and the counseling side of, of God’s work, we had to learn that if someone came to us, there was no circumstance, that I would go to somebody else. In fact, I even asked permission from the people if I can please tell Andy. Because I don’t take that for granted. It’s something that we had to learn. So that was one of the things that I think I had to learn, very young, in my Christian walk, was being in a position of leadership, a position where people have looked to me as a spiritual mother, although I didn’t always feel like one. Because, you know, I can remember in one of the churches after we got married, we went to Pastor Reg asked us to go in minister in a church in Honeydew, in Johannesburg. And I can remember one of the ladies coming to me and saying, “I’d love to pluck your eyebrows.” I was like “what’s wrong with my eyebrows?” People think because you’re on stage that they can help you, and design you, and you know, fit a certain model. But, and so you have to be…
Pastor John: Authentic.
Pastor Penny: But you have to be contempt with who God has made you and learn to accept who you are. And I was not a confident person growing up. I could not say a speech in front of the class. My matric orals were a nightmare. And so when God asked me to come and now be a pastor’s wife, and speak in front of people sometimes and give my testimonies. You’re asking me something. But I thank God, that when I am weak, He is strong. And so that was something I learned.
I’ve learned too, that with the different types of leadership. Not everybody does the thing the same way as we do. So I have to learn that I submit to the leadership of the church. And I can see that you do that in this church, just by your respect to calling Pastor John, Pastor John. But not only that, I can call him Pastor John and still be rebellious inside. But I know that your position, I know that you are submitting to the leadership and the oversight of this church. And it was something that I had to do, even though I didn’t always feel I like to do it the way the leader does it. That’s not my call. I’ve been called by God to a particular church. And I must do it the way that the leader…when Andy was the Pastor of the little church in Honeydew. I submitted to him. It’s totally different. Submitting to a husband, and to the leader of the church. They are two different people. Okay. Your husband, or Andy was anointed when he came up and spoke. And, and…
Pastor John: When he was at home, you had to be,
Pastor Penny: real. [laughing] Yeah. And we gave, as Pastor John was saying, he gives Sharon grace and she gives him grace. We had to learn to do that. So yeah, I’m just saying that those are things I had to learn. It doesn’t come naturally, not to me anyway.
Pastor John: It’s a spiritual force, that God begins to grow in your identity as you give yourself to it and say, “Yes, Lord, I’ll do it”. Then He begins to give you that grace and to learn and to keep growing in that right.
Pastor Penny: Yes.
Pastor John: Yeah.
Pastor Penny: And then another thing I had to do, because you’ve been called by God into the church, you have to find where you fit, and your unique identity, and your unique calling. And who am I, and I’m not, we joke about it now. But I was always Andy’s wife. [laughing] You know, I wasn’t Penny. I was Andy’s wife. And then it became the children’s mother. And now, I know beyond a doubt that I know that I have a special call on my life. I know that there are certain things that God’s gifted me with, and I use those in the church. And now Andy jokes, because he retired before I did, that he became – Penny’s husband. Yeah, yeah. Is there anything else you want me to say?
Pastor John: No, I’m going to move on to the second point that…before he talks anything about Penny and you know that dynamic. But you want to talk about only believe as your, as your something you wanted to say Andy.
Pastor Andy: You know, the Bible says without faith, it is impossible to please God. And I must admit I’ve wrestled with definitions of faith for years, what is faith? Smith Wigglesworth, that Pastor John quote says faith is God in a human vessel. One of the verses, which has been…the phrase Only believe comes from Jairus. Remember, this little girl was dying. And then He said “I’ll come and heal her.” And then that lady with the hemorrhage of blood, she said, If I just touch Him, I’ll get healed. And so there was a delay. So sometimes, maybe this is for somebody here today. God has said, I’m coming to do it for you. But there’s been a delay. And then they came with a message from Jairus’s household, and they say “don’t bother the master, she’s dead. Then Jesus said to him “I’m still coming, only believe”. And what I’ve done. I like visualization. You know, visualization is a massive principle that invites you to see things before they materialize. I mean, I can imagine God in creation saying, “Hey, I’m gonna make light. Let there be light. Let there be sun, moon and stars.”
I don’t know about you. But I think you have a nice clear sky here. Sometimes I still don’t have a render of time and I just look up there and I say, that little star, and that little star and it’s so many millions of light years away. And He made all this for me to look at night, just for me to look at. I mean, what a God. How big is your God. He is bigger than you think. He is bigger than you think. I have just a brief word of testimony. I was born with a blood disease called hemochromatosis. When I was about 45, my knees were hurting me, and my shoulders were hurting me and I was sick. Still a long medical process. I mean, I’ve probably consulted about 10 specialist. They found out that I had too much iron in my body. And the iron was rubbing all my cartilage away.
So 2011, my knees were so sore, I couldn’t walk. So I went in for an operation, and they replaced both my knees. And then it was my hips. I mean, I honestly couldn’t, I couldn’t get in, sit on the seat of the car and do that. [moving his left leg up and out]. I had to pick my leg up and then pick the other leg up and then drive the car. So got both my hips replaced at the same time. And then my ankles wore out. I can take you to places in our shopping malls where I remember walking there in pain. I couldn’t do both ankles together because then I couldn’t walk at all. So I did one ankle, and had a boot on. I used to sleep with this boot on at night, when I want to turn over in bed and kick myself on the shin. It was sore! So I know what pain is.
However, as I sit here now, I can walk. I mean, I walk carefully as you can see. I have no pain. The Lord healed me but He didn’t heal me the way I wanted Him to. You know, I mean, it’s like old Naaman, when Elisha said. Elisha didn’t even come out. You know the story, I am sure you have heard it. And old Naaman was as mad as a snake. He said, Well, why didn’t he come out and wave a wand over me?
Pastor John: Or at least give me clear water, in my own country.
Pastor Andy: And then his servant talks and said to him, you need someone with you that can talk sense into you when you want to go off the track. Yeah, who can say no to you? You need someone like that. And the servant said to him, I didn’t ask you to do something difficult. Just go and get in that River Jordan and dip seven times. And I love that my dad used to do Sunday school. He dipped once and he looked at it was still there, and he dipped 2,3,4,5,6 times and he said, ah no, I don’t know if this is working. But he says seven. Seventh time he comes up with a skin of a new baby. Wow. So I’ve had to learn to trust God with healing and only believe. You know you need to. You’ve heard Pastor John preach on this vividly. What does it mean to only believe? So I found a verse in the Bible which I called, which thrills me and challenges me like nothing on earth.
In John 14, verse 12, Jesus said, “If you believe in Me, you will do what I do. And greater works.” Well I don’t even know what the greater works are. That verse…that’s why I went to the PNA and I got a little plank, and I put the letters only believe on it, and I stuck it on the wall in my study with pristiq. And every time I sit, I look at these words that says, Only believe and every time I see only believe, I think of John 14 verse 12. Jesus, you know what faith is, you become just like Jesus. You know, in Romans eight, in Romans eight it says, He’s the firstborn among many brethren. Hey, He wants to look at every person in the church right now and say, You’re just like Jesus, you talk like Him. You walk like Him. You love like Him. You give like Him, you heal the sick and you raised the dead. Hey, you heard what Pastor John said, two nights ago: “Hey, we trust God for miracles, and have that sense of expectation.” So you know, when I say only believe.
Just another quick scripture that I’ve memorized. Let me say this to you, memorize the scriptures. Another story just pops into my mind; remember those old tape recorders with a tape? He had a testimony of a missionary who was in communist China, when the Communists took over. And they took a Catholic priest, they took a nun, they took a Jewish Rabbi and this Pastor, and threw them into jail, and tried to brainwash them. They would put him in a chair with spotlights in his eyes. And then they would repeat communist slogans too, until such time, and I heard them, I’ve heard him say this, I didn’t read this in a book, until such time as he didn’t know. You’ve talked about Pastor Jerry, he didn’t know who he was, he didn’t know what his name was, he didn’t know what his wife’s name was, he didn’t know where he was.
And the the Catholic priest trying to explain the rosary; I’m not being derogatory now, went mad, and they shot him; and so did the Jewish Rabbi. And while, his name is Lesley Mullen, I remember his name; while he was sitting there, he starts to say: “My times are in Thy hands. My times are in Thy hands.” And, the interrogator says: “Hey, what are you saying?” He is, I think it’s Psalm 31, verse 5, he was quoting from a Psalm that he didn’t remember where the Psalm was, but he remembered it from church in Sunday school somewhere.
That’s always in his mind. I actually did this with a group of young people in that same church, we started it. You know, I said: “Okay, the communists are coming in, they’re gonna take over. How much of the Word of God have you got in you?” You were talking about the Ukraine and Russia. All you and I have got to face the enemy is the Word of God. I’m not preaching at you now. This is the gospel truth, excuse me. [Pastor Andy takes a sip of water] So the interrogator said: “Where did you get that from?” (He replied:) “In my Bible.” “Go fetch his Bible.” Somebody went and found his Bible somewhere, and I don’t know about you and your Bible, but I can sort of open it on the book that I am so used to. Normally if you open the Bible in the middle, you’re in Psalms, unless you’ve got a big concordance at the back.
He didn’t know, he said his eyes wouldn’t focus because of the spotlight, and he sat there until his eyes could focus; he put his finger down, and he said: “My Times are in Thy hands.” The interrogator came into his house that night, gave his heart to the Lord. And I know this sounds terrible; the communists took the interrogator and murdered him. He got saved because of, “My times are in Thy hands.” So you’ve heard this man preaching his heart out [pointing to Pastor John]. Hey, if you don’t meditate in the Word, if you ever get into a situation like that, you’ve got nothing in your head, except: “My times are in Thy hands.”
Pastor John: I mean how great, how great is that?
Pastor Penny: Can I add to that?
Pastor John: Yes, please?
Penny: When I had the stroke 24 years ago. They don’t know why I had the stroke. But I ended up in hospital with my left hand side not being able to function. In fact, they came to me and said: “Do you want to use your left hand, or do you want to walk? And I said: “Sorry, that’s not an option for me. I want both.” But I can still remember, I’m still human. I can remember that night lying in the hospital bed and thinking, “God why me. I’m in the ministry. I’m working for you. What’s happened here?”
But I learned that night that I could have gone into a pity party and gone on a downward spiral. And so I had to say: “I will take every thought captive to Christ.” And you know what? I then went home when I eventually went home, and they had to teach me to walk again. After I got home, trying to peel a potato with this left hand that won’t hold a potato. And yeah, God knows. But it was a step by step journey, not only doing my physical exercises, I had to use spiritual exercises too, of learning the words. I looked up Exodus 15:26, I looked up all the scriptures on healing that I could find. But the one that became my scripture, is Jeremiah 30, verse 17, which says, ¹⁷ I will restore your health and heal your wounds, says the Lord. (Jeremiah 30:17)
So now, when I go and pray for the people in hospital, or wherever they are at home; sick, that’s the scripture I use, because that’s the scripture that became a Rhema to me. I had to take that scripture and every time I felt like, “I can’t do this anymore”, I remember marching left, right, left, right down the driveway, trying to walk again. Then I think, “Yes, I’ve done it!” Then the physio said to me: “Okay, go backwards now.” And I fell over, I couldn’t go backwards, I had to retrain my brain to go backwards. But you know what? The Word of God is alive and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword. And it goes down deep, between soul and spirit and bone and marrow. And the doctors don’t even know where the bone and marrow starts and end. But the Word of God does. And the Word of God can go down there and minister to you. And I believe when I went to one of the specialists, another specialist after I’d had the stroke, he said to me: “Are you sure you had a stroke?” I said: “Don’t ask me. Ask the neurologists who saw me in hospital.” He said: “Well, you’ve made a remarkable recovery.”
That’s God. That’s our God. But it’s the Word of God that’s alive, that brings that healing, that nothing can stop it. There was a lady in our church, and we were ministering in Randfontein at the time. And she’d had a stroke exactly a month before me, and I remember visiting her in hospital and helping her. And this poor lady had, I think it was her left leg, she had had polio as a child, and the stroke had affected her right side.
So now neither leg worked properly, but I’ll give that lady 110% for trying to walk again. But sadly, she never walked again. She’s in a wheelchair, her hand clawed, which is what you got to be careful of. But you know what, she asked me one day when we went to visit her after I’d had the stroke. “How come God healed you and not me?” I don’t know why. But I do know that the Word of God was what became my life source in that stage. I still believe.
Congregation: Amen. Hallelujah.
Pastor John: I think something that we’re learning here, and if you haven’t detected it yet. In both of their lives, you are hearing that it’s the Word of God. It’s the love for God. It’s the love for God’s people. It’s the love for the house of God. For the people in the house of God, is really what they have lived in their lives all these years. Sometimes when I’m, when Pastor Sharon and I, and Pastor Christy, and Garth and whoever is preaching, you know, sometimes when we’re ministering, we feel like, “We know you’re getting it, but, but this is the biggest deal in your life.” It’s not your job. It’s not the work that you do. It’s the God that you serve. It’s the God that you have a relationship with. It’s the biggest deal. It’s the biggest deal.
He is not somebody that you just fit into your life. Right? It’s not a hobby. It’s not somebody that you just fit in your life when it’s convenient, and when, “I’ve given you this much time, and that’s how much time I’ll give you. And, I’ll be disciplined, and I will read my Bible, and I’ll pray, but when I’m done, the rest of the day is mine,” you know; and a lot of Christians live like that.
For the most part of my life, when I grew up, I was aware that most Christians lived like that. Church was just something that people came to on a Sunday. And the Pastor had to do everything, and had to give amazing revelations. And they had to do all that stuff. But people, you know, it was this disconnect between the church, the relationship with God, but praise God, we are making great strides towards changing that completely in our lives. That God is everything to us personally, individually, every moment, every day, every way. Hallelujah.
Pastor Penny: And I think, if you don’t mind me saying something, that we don’t all start as a Pastor. And John has grown into that. I remember, as a little child, we can tell you some little stories about how he got up to mischief, and he didn’t want to sit in the meetings, and I know you’ve just got a hay low now. But it’s something I think that we got to recognize. Before I married Andy, we were in Summit house in Braamfontein. And I went to Teachers Training College, in Braamfontein. So during some of my free time, free periods, or whatever, I would go down to Summit house, and they would be having a ministers meeting. And we didn’t have a kitchenette on the third floor, we had the bathrooms. So if we wanted to wash the cups and saucers that the ministers had used, we had to put them into a zink bath, and then we drag it to the lift and take it up to the next floor, wash them, and then bring them back down again.
And I think John doesn’t even know that now. But that was something that I used to do. And when people say: “But you know, how have you become who you are?” It starts with washing the cups and the saucers, somebody’s got to do it. And you know what? Somebody in the church might not see you. But God does. And he sees your faithfulness. And he sees those little things. Someone’s got to clean the toilets. Someone’s got to put up the decorations; and they’re beautiful. Someone’s got to do the car park attendance. Someone’s got to be an Usher. God sees your faithfulness in those things that you do.
Pastor John: No, no, thank you. That’s amazing. I mean, you all know that I served my pastor, Pastor Ray for 19 years, and did a lot of stuff. And so people say to me: “Well, you know, how did I get to have these relationships with Jerry Savelle, Kenneth Copeland and all these wonderful men of God, you know?” And I can only say that there’s a legacy of prayer, a legacy of faith in our line, but at the same time, I had to be faithful. I had to serve. I had to serve in the way that God wanted me to serve my Pastor. Because even though there is a legacy of faith and wonderful men that God used in our family. If I didn’t learn faithfulness, the way that Penny learned faithfulness, same thing; then we disqualify ourselves and we dis count ourselves to be able to do things for God that He wants us to do. And He only will do it on the back of being a servant, because that’s what He said, right in the end before He died “I have to serve you. You have to let Me serve you, otherwise you can have no part of Me.” And so it’s not something that you look down on, it’s something to actually elevate as a powerful launching pad of what God wants for your life. Now we have this tendency to think, if you’re serving in the church, well, you’re still in the throws of making it, so that’s why you are still serving. But that’s not what it is at all. Serving is required forever. I just serve you now in a different way.
Pastor Andy: Can I just comment? When I went to Bible school, we studied the book of Mark. The Book of Mark is a book of action. I think the word immediately, appears like 42 times, depending on your translation. But the central verse in the book of Mark is Mark 10:45. It says, 45 For the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve and to give His life as a ransom for many. Mark 10:45 (NKJV). So Jesus started washing cups in the kitchen, and ended up dying for humanity.
Pastor John: No, I mean, that’s as powerful as it gets in Christianity. Serving is just the way it is. You know. It’s marvellous. It was an absolute joy for both Pastor Sharon and I, when we spent time with Brother Jerry and Carolyn Savelle over this time that we were in America. We had an unique opportunity to be around them and in a more social environment. And you know, Carolyn Savelle just wanted to make sure that, “Can I make you some tea? Can I make you some coffee? Can I make you something?” And Brother Jerry, you know, he jumped up out of his chair, and he went to the fridge. And he comes back with a box. And in this box is his favourite ice cream. And so he didn’t give us a choice. You have to eat my favourite ice cream. And so we ended up eating Fudgicles – chocolate fudgicles – it is chocolate and fudge in an ice cream. It’s amazing. But it’s amazing that, you know, when he’s around me and we are in a church setting, it’s my joy, it’s our joy to serve him. But in a social and in a more relaxed environment in his home, he did everything to want to serve us. And Carolyn wanted to serve us, because it was just an expression of their love that they wanted to show us. You know, in that moment, their own walk with God requires them to do that.
And still, still now that it’s a remarkable thing that we commented on, you know, that Jerry Savelle has been with Kenneth Copeland in ministry for 53 years. And for the last three years, he’s been traveling now with Kenneth Copeland, and giving his time and paying in his own way, paying for his own hotel bills, and everything to serve Brother Copeland, even though his ministry is what it is in its own right. He has been obedient to God to serve Brother Copeland. And so he goes, and he spends these weekends with Brother Copeland. And he never stopped serving. It’s what Jesus did for us. He died for us.
And so we have this tendency to think that, if you’re serving in the church, that this is like your training program, you know, it’s like your training ground. And if you’re not preaching yet, and you’re still serving, then you haven’t made it. But the reality is, that it doesn’t matter where you are in your walk with God, you’re always needing to serve. Because it’s the foundation of love. Love and serving work together. Hallelujah. And I didn’t want to preach but there I started preaching anyway.
Pastor Andy: You took off again.
Pastor John: I took off again. [laughing]. Andy, you wanted to talk and we had some conversation about it…(Asking the congregation) Are you guys still okay? Are you still with us? Are you sure? I’m wanting you to say maybe not, because maybe they’re going to reveal a secret about me that I don’t remember or something, you know, but they’ve been very kind to me so far today. But I know you wanted to share something about the overcomer.
Pastor Andy: I wanted to mention you know, when Pastor John invited us to come here. I mean, he talked about us renewing our relationships. When his mother died (emotional moment) she said to me “look after my children,” and I haven’t.
Pastor Penny: Andy said he wasn’t going to cry today.
Pastor Andy: I asked the Lord to help me not to, but He didn’t.
Pastor Penny: He cried at our wedding too.
Pastor John: Now I’m used to him doing this, you’ve done good today, you almost nearly at the end here, and it’s the first time you cried.
Pastor Andy: You know, Jesus wept, it’s the shortest verse in the Bible, two words. I was just thinking about serving, you know, meeting Empie and living with Garth (Brynn) and Miranda. I can’t remember when last the two of us were ever treated with such kid loves. I don’t know how to describe it. I’m still sitting on a cloud. Because you guys have learned, you are par-excellence servers. And may that be a hallmark, trademark of your church – we serve – we don’t argue about it, we just do it. And I’ll tell you something God misses nothing.
And when you’re looking for someone to promote, you should find the people that are serving in a kitchen. You know, every now and then I’ll pop in there, and I talk to Matthew and his team and they all smile at me. I thought wow, it looks so pretty when you smile, have you noticed?
Anyway, I am going to be brief, I promise but, I am a made Bendixen. Oh, I’m just sharing with you. This is not a sermon. I live by these words. I have stuck them on a wall in my study. The word is Overcomer. The Afrikaans is ‘n oorwinnaar. It means we don’t go under. We are not submarines. We’re going over. And pardon me saying this: “Come hell or high water, we’re going over,” because Jesus said so. And it depends on the translation you’ve got. Some of them say victorious, so I like oorwinnaar. It sounds good to me. I’m an overcomer. And in Revelation, chapter two, chapter three, this is Jesus now, this is by the way, the glorious Jesus. This is not gentle Jesus of Nazareth, who was born in a stable. This is not Jesus hanging on a cross. By the way, He is not on the cross anymore.
Pastor John: No.
Pastor Andy: 1 John 4:17. John, the beloved, says: As He is now, so are we. Can you get your little mind around it? This is the glorious Jesus, that you can’t even look at him. And He said as He is now, so am I. Hey, doesn’t that give you a shot in the arm to say, I’m a son of the living God! And as He is now glorified! You know, that’s a word that I don’t know when you preach on glory, but it’s a word that we don’t use in English language often. When last did you say: “Hey, you look glorious.” No we don’t talk like that. Glory is the energy mass that’s in our God that He said: Moses – I forgot to tell you – Moses in Exodus 33 says: “Show me Your ways, and show me Your glory.” I mean, if you sum up the rest of your life, take those two phrases – say: “God, show me Your ways, the way You do things. I want to do it like You.” But I want to see Your glory” And He said, ok, I’ll show you My ways but glory, sorry Moses, you can’t handle My glory. Okay, I’m gonna stand here behind a rock somewhere. And I’ll cover You with my hand. And You walk in front of me and you’ll see the back of My glory. And when Moses came off the mountain, the Israelites couldn’t look at him. He had to cover his face. Do you know what? The Bible says in Romans 8 that you and I have been glorified.
Hey, do you feel glorified? Do you feel some kind of supernatural? You were talking last night about energy. Hey, get up and…you know, we’re all blessed. Every one of you is so special. There’s not another person out of 7 billion people on planet earth like you, thank the Lord. I mean.
Pastor John: Yes. Thank the Lord.
Pastor Andy: I didn’t mean it like that. I really didn’t.
Pastor John: No no, thank the, Lord.
Pastor Andy: He’s got a sense of humor, this is what keeps him alive. So overcomers. I just want to read this to you. Seven times, Jesus says, to the seven churches in Asia, to him that overcomes, I’ll give you a new name. All the basic needs of humanity are met here, because we all want significance. We all want nice clothes. And we all want to live in a nice place. Come on, don’t you? You’re going to get that in glory, magnified a million times. He says: “I will give you a new name. I’ll let you eat from the tree of life.”
Wow, I mean, I was listening to Pastor Christie’s message when she was summing up all the stuff that you and Pastor Sharon have taught. Everyone of our human problems comes from, which tree are you eating of. I don’t care, I’ve meditated on this for years. Tree of Life means “God, I’m giving you dominion over the earth, but you eat for my tree to get the energy.” Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, we could talk about it for hours, is when I want to do it my way. You know, Frank Sinatra? I want to do it my way. And unfortunately, my way always ends in death. Something you were talking about life and death last night. Hey, death, the second death. In fact, one of the rewards here is, you will not be touched by the second death.
Pastor John: I’m going to ask you to repeat that, Andy. I mean, that’s so significant. If you do it your way, it always ends in death. Because it’s not God’s way – that always is life.
Pastor Andy: You know, there have always been a saying in our family: We have good ideas and God ideas. Some good ideas work, some don’t. God ideas must always work. What I love listening to you talk in your church culture is: I want to hear what the Lord wants me to do. And I’m not preaching at you now. He can make you successful. I mean, last night, you were saying, “If God wants you to be a financier, and give you millions, you’ll just get ideas.” I mean, Brynn was telling us that last night, he’ll get ideas. In other words, that is: Be still and know that I’m God. Because when you are still, you will know what to do. You won’t have to pray for three days and say, Lord, what I do now? You will just know. That’s the relationship what you are talking about.
Pastor John: Exactly.
Pastor Andy: Yeah I covered that. I was lying in bed last night praying for today and saying, “Lord you know, what are your ideas? What do you think about this? Am I doing what you want me to do?” I’ll tell you one thing, I’m 78 now, and I pray for myself, God am I doing what you designed me to do? Because you might have been very successful where you are, but one day when you stand in front of Him, He is going to say “oh man you did a great job over here I actually wanted you here.” I’m not preaching at you now. That’s how I live. I said, God, for the rest of my life may it be the best of my life, but I want to do it your way.
He says that you and I will rule the nations. Can you get your mind around that? I don’t even know which nations they are because in the Millennium, I don’t know all about it. But He said you will sit on My throne. I said that’s a big throne. Use your imagination and think when Jesus said you’re going to sit on My throne and rule the Nations and I’m going to cloth you in white. Now white means righteousness in the Bible. But boy these are going to be white like you’ve never seen before. I mean, don’t we? How many of you looked in the mirror before you came here? Don’t put up your hand because if you didn’t you should’ve. [Laughter]. You know I try to brush my hair in a straight line, sometimes I can, sometimes I can’t.
But you know what? He is going to dress you like you’ve never been dressed before. And you are going to look in the mirror and go wow, yeah. I am getting carried away here. Then He says you will be citizens of heaven and I’ll make you pillars in the Temple of my God. I don’t even know what that means. But you know what? If I’m going to stand there like a pillar and hold the roof up so be it. But isn’t that exciting. If your Christianity needs a boost right now, go and read Revelation chapter 2 and chapter 3 and say that’s where we’re going man.
Pastor John: Yes.
Pastor Andy: And I want to be the best.
Pastor John: Yes.
Pastor Andy: You know I understand he’s been in the military. Hey when I get to heaven I don’t want to be a Corporal I want to be a Colonel. Does that make sense?
Pastor John: Yes.
Pastor Andy: I just, I don’t know if that’s true?
Pastor John: I mean that scripture that you’re quoting from there, He actually talks about the overcomers crown of life.
Pastor Andy: Yes.
Pastor John: And so if you’re, as we are overcomers we become Colonels if you like.
Pastor Andy: Yes.
Pastor John: Because you get the overcomers crown of life. It’s a specific crown dedicated to you as an overcomer. The overcomers crown of life. Everybody who is an overcomer with God’s Word, you overcome by your word, by the Word of God, by the blood of the Lamb and by your testimonies. You overcome by that. When you’re an overcomer you get the overcomers crown of life. When you come before Him and stand before Him one day. That’s a wonderful thing.
Pastor Andy: Amen.
Pastor Penny: Can I just mention too, Pastor John quoted that scripture, you are overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of your testimony. We all have a testimony and we must all b,e ready at all times to give our testimony, wherever it is because no one can deny you your testimony.
Pastor John: That’s right.
Pastor Penny: They can argue about your theology and that.
Pastor John: Or your philosophy or whatever but not your life testimony.
Pastor Penny: Absolutely.
Pastor John: Yeah.
Pastor Penny: Once I couldn’t walk and now I can walk.
Pastor John: Yes.
Pastor Penny: That’s my testimony.
Pastor John: Yes.
Pastor Penny: How? By the grace of God. But I also want to say that some years back God gave me the word “overcomer for the year” and I thought Lord that’s a funny word to give me. Because I realized in studying it, that to be an overcomer you have to have trials to overcome. And we only do that through the Lord Jesus Christ. We can only overcome the tests and the trials and the tribulation of this life with the Lord Jesus Christ.
Pastor John: Amen.
Pastor Andy: I want to say something I forgot. I told you I’ve had my hips, my knees and my ankles replaced. Long before that happened we went to a prophetic conference. I can’t even remember the name of the church. And a young American prophet called Scott Webster, I don’t even know where he came from. We all lined up for him to prophesy over us, and he said to me you will run up and down stairs without pain in your ankles. And anytime I get a word like that I write it down. By the way that’s one thing that I encourage you to do, “journal.” Write your vision down. Because I tell you what I do. I’ve got stacks of pages that I’ve written down and I’ll tell you what I’ve learned. I will read something that I wrote in 1987, and I had a problem and you know what I’ve still got the same problem. You realize hey, you had that problem a long time, you’re going to die with a problem. Unless you change something. Are you with me? Your little life story, how well do you remember it? What are the things that you still want to overcome? I think that’s a critical thing.
I want to just close this little thing with a funny part. In Romans 8:37 Paul writes and he says, we are more than conquerors. Romans 8:37 (NKJV). The Greek word is “hupernikaó” and I looked that up because you know one of the problems we’ve got is to understand what all these words mean. The best example I could think of, I don’t know about you, don’t think I’m naughty but I love watching good boxing.
Pastor John: That’s very naughty. [Saying that jokingly]
Pastor Andy: I watched Muhammad Ali, I don’t know, 10 fights and then I realized Rocky Marciano the undefeated world heavy weight. Anyway, the funny part that I want to tell you is, these guys go in the ring and they get hammered. I mean then you watch two heavyweights hitting each other and it’s sore. Then one of them gets a million dollars and he goes home and gives it to his wife. She’s more than a conqueror. He came home all bashed. She just got to the million dollars. See, Jesus got bashed for you, so that you can get the million dollars. Does that make sense?
Pastor John: Amen. Amen.
Pastor Andy: Forgive my analogy.
Pastor John: No. No, it’s good. Even the Apostle Paul liked boxing.
Pastor Andy: He did.
Pastor John: He boxed himself. He did. He says “I even beat myself daily.” You know.
Pastor Andy: I am nearly finished, just this last Scripture.
Pastor John: Yeah. Yes.
Pastor Andy: The last scripture was “much more.” I love those two words. I don’t know what your Christianity looks like right now. But there’s much more. I don’t care how holy you are or how saintly you are, how anointed you are. There’s much more, because God wants me to be like Him. Wow. He’s big. That’s Romans 5 verse 17 and it’s an incredible verse actually. You’ve talked about grace last night. He says, it starts off and I wrestled with this with God because I said, Lord, you know, Adam disobeyed you. Yeah, you smacked him because he was disobedient. But you and I, every one of us in this room were born with a chronic disease called sin. Then if you haven’t found out, you’re going to find out quickly. Have you ever taught your children to be naughty? No, why? Because they’re born naughty. I am just saying this but it’s true. So I said to the Lord often, Lord often, that’s not fair. I didn’t asked to be born like this. Show me the truth of this thing because You don’t make mistakes. There’s nothing happened that You didn’t plan. Amen. You better believe God is a great planner.
Pastor John: Yes.
Pastor Andy: So He says in spite of the fact that you were born with a sinful nature because of Adam’s sin. How much more shall those who receive the gift of God’s grace. He actually says the abundant grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through Christ Jesus. Hey, you know what? We are the royal family. You were born to rule and reign in Christ Jesus.
Pastor John: Amen.
Pastor John: You were never meant to be under the circumstances. And I know I’m talking to someone here because I’m talking to myself and we’re all human beings, aren’t we? Hey, the times that I feel like I’m under the circumstances, I need to remind myself about much more.
Pastor John: Yes.
Pastor Andy: Hey, and I don’t care where you are financially, or in your health. Oh, I was going to tell you that I’m still living with running up and down stairs without pain in my ankles.
Pastor John: Amen.
Pastor Andy: You Know I like to hold on to things when I walk upstairs, like living in your house. But you know what? I’m going to run up and down stairs because God says so. It looks like it’s almost impossible, but it can’t be.
Pastor John: No.
Pastor Andy: So I don’t care how old you are or young you are. It’s never too late.
Pastor John: Exactly.
Pastor Andy: For much more.
Pastor John: Yes. Amen. So I see that we wanted to talk about Smith Wigglesworth and, and Willie Burton. Yes, however you want to go about sharing that?
Pastor Andy: Well, I, you know, it’s amazing how the Lord leads me to buy books. I go to the library, and that book sales, I go to the Kraaifontein library, if you know where that is. It’s a sort of a low-level library but I like the people. I read a lot and when I find a book with any kind of blasphemy that, when they say Jesus or Jesus Christ, and I’m very naughty, I take a pen and obliterate that word. I do it in a library book. Don’t tell anybody.
Pastor John: In Kraaifontein. Ons gaan soek. [Congregation Laughing]
Pastor Andy: But I go there and I tell you, I have picked up Christian books and they sell them for five rand each. I showed you that book, Andrew Murray’s book, The Secret. I paid five rand for that. But there are books that, it’s amazing if the Lord will lead you which books to buy, which books to read. Really. Do you think he’s interested in what you read? I think He is.
Pastor John: But before you go on, Andy, the book that you’re referring to you bought for five rand, Andrew Murray. The title of that book is The Secret of Authority.
Pastor Andy: Yeah.
Pastor John: And yeah, I mean, that’s significant for us in this ministry. But anyway, you want to carry on with what you’ve read in Smith Wigglesworth…
Pastor Andy: I am nearly finished. I promise you. The Secrets of authority. Yeah.
Pastor John: He’s circling now. [Congregation Laughing]
Pastor Andy: I’ve got to learn how to land.
Penny: It’s a family thing.
Pastor Andy: So we read every morning, Penny and I. I make breakfast for her because we both eat oats porridge, and we read Smith Wigglesworth daily reading. Smith Wigglesworth and I couldn’t find that photograph I wanted to show you. I’ve got a picture of him sitting on our back veranda in Krugersdorp with my grandmother, my German grandmother, who came from Schleswig-Holstein. I was three when she died, so you never knew her. But Smith Wigglesworth gave his heart to the Lord, I said when he was about eight or nine, like I did, sitting on our back veranda. But he was a plumber. He was not a sophisticated person, he could barely read. His wife taught him to read and the only book he ever read was The Bible. He said, “see if you can catch me without a New Testament or a Bible in my pocket.” But a remarkable man.
He raised the dead. He raised his wife from the dead and she sat up in the bed and said, Smith, it’s so nice there, please let me go.” I mean he healed cancer. I tell you something that I want and I want it for all of us. He said that he would get on a railway coach and two ministers from another church would get into the coach and he didn’t say a word to them. And they would say to him, “Your presence convicts me of sin.” And he start preaching in the whole in the coach would get saved. He was going on a ship to New Zealand, and they came to him and they said, “We’re having a concert tonight. Would you like to join in?” They said, “Well, what can you do?” He says, “I can sing.” So they didn’t know what he was going to sing. And he got up and he’s singing “What a friend we have in Jesus.” And they came to him afterwards and said, “You wrecked the concert?” I don’t know how many people came to his cabin to get saved.
Can I say this to you? Do you remember that lady with the hemorrhage that said, “If I could just touch Him.” Do you know that you and I as human beings can be so anointed, that if people touch you or you touch them, there’ll be a divine impartation of healing. I was stuck there John.
Pastor John: Amen
Pastor Andy: Hey, wow man. That’s the potential that’s available to us. But I just want to tell you about my friend Willie Burton. I didn’t read about him in a book. I went to Bible school in Norwood, and Willie Burton was then in his 83, 84. He started a 1000 churches in the Belgian Congo. He was the first white man that a lot of those cannibals had ever seen. I mean, he would sit with me, I’m just another Bible School student, sit next to me on the grass, and he used to do tricks with peanuts for kids. I mean, he was …and then he told me stories, He said they were walking down this jungle path in the Congo, and with a couple of Lady missionaries, and he listens to the cannibals talking and they said, “This one lady missionary is a little plump, I think we’ll eat her first.” I heard him say that. They come into a little village and they’ve never seen a white man before and…(went) into the bush. But there’s this old cripple lady sitting there who can’t run. So he said, “Lord, what do you want me to do?” He said, “Well heal her.” So he heals this old lady, she jumps up and they all come out of the bush and the whole village gets saved. I mean, what a man. So I was, you know, sitting on the grass with him and listening to him telling me stories. And I thought, what an incredible thing.
Why do I want to tell you this? Pastor John was going to pray for sick people. He had, got very ill in the Congo. And he came down to the General Hospital in Joburg, went into the specialist room, and the specialist examined him and said, “You have got terminal cancer of the colon.” That’s your main intestine. And Willie Burton said to him, “We’ll, can you do anything about it?” He said, “Sorry, it’s terminal.” So he said, “Okay, if I’m gonna die, I want to go die in the Congo where God called me.” I’m not sure how he got there but he used to go on a train. And he keeps saying to himself, a nurse in attendance and he keeps saying, “By Jesus stripes I’m healed, by Jesus stripes I’m healed.” He told me this. And the nurse came to him and said, “Mr. Burton, is there something you want?” He said, “No, I’m just taking my medicine.”
Back in the Congo, he’s got tubes, his bowel aren’t working I mean, niks het gewerk. He reached that point where his faith…and I’ll tell you something about faith. Faith reaches a discharge level. And the best I can think of is some kind of an electric current. You know that when certain things get to a certain level, there’s an explosion. He reached that point where the Lord said to him “to pull the tubes out.” He pulled all the tubes out. I’ll tell you something else about him. The Lord gave him another set of teeth. Because there’s no dentist in the Congo. So I thought, “Wow.” You know, his teeth were all out, I don’t know how old he was then, and he prayed for more teeth and he got a whole set of new teeth. So you know what he did? When he came back to South Africa, he went into the general hospital. And he went to that surgeon. And the surgeon nearly fell off the chair. He says, “Burton is it you? Can I examine you?” He says, “Yeah, you pay for the X-rays.” Nothing wrong with him.
You know, he was about 84 when he died. And I’ll tell you how he died. He was sitting on the veranda of somebody’s house that was hosting him and his heart just stopped. He just went to sleep on the chair. That’s a way to die. I’m not talking about dying, I’m talking about miracles. And this man that I knew was part of our family in that sense. So God bless you.
Pastor John: It was a real great joy for me to hear because when we were talking yesterday, I didn’t know that Andy had this relationship with William Burton. But William Burton had a relationship with my dad, and stayed in our house many times. And, but I was just a little boy then, you know, and I remember him because there was an anointing there was a presence of, of the Holy Spirit upon him. You know, but also he would do these tricks with you, we talked about the peanut trick, he would do tricks with money and fetch coins behind his ear, fetch it behind your ear and, you know, little tricks that he would do. I suppose that he just did that to break the ice wherever he went, you know.
But one of the things that when my dad died that I requested, before he died, I said, “Dad one day when you go,” we had a water painting that William Burton did, and it’s one of the things that he enjoyed to do was to do water, watercolor paintings. And he had done a watercolor painting for my dad. And that is one of the things that I have, is that watercolor painting. But praise God, it’s a wonderful thing. You know that we have such great, great legacy. And, well, it’s been a joy for me to hear some of this.
Pastor Andy: I just have one thought for us. And I think you were preaching about it last night. God wants to use what you’ve got. All He wants you to do is I think you mentioned the loaves and the fishes. That story I was reading, I was doing some research on it when it says 5000 men, that actually means 5000 families. There were like 30,000 people there. And the fascinating thing is, the disciples…and I heard about and you know what disciples are like? When the preacher preaches too long, they got together and John said to Peter, “You know, Peter, I think we better tell Him. He’s going on a bit long here and these people are hungry.” Not you [Pastor Andy pointing to the congregation]
Pastor John: You guys don’t do that. Right? [Pastor John laughing]
Pastor Andy: Yeah, these people are hungry. “Okay, John, you’re going to talk to him.” So John goes there and says, “Lord excuse me” He’s preaching, Jesus is preaching. “Excuse me Lord, Peter told me to tell you something.” I don’t know what he did, but I mean, I think Jesus had a wonderful sense of humor. And, “Yes, yes. John, well you know it’s getting late” and there’s no Pick a Pay around here no Checkers, no Steers. “Don’t you think you better tell these people to go home they’re hungry?”
He looks at him and he says, “You feed them.” Wow. You know, it’s like him pointing his finger at me or you and say, “You meet the need.” And in fact, in the original language, it means you can meet that need because I’m here. Wow! What a story.My first name is Andrew, and I love that when I read the list of the disciples that that’s me.
Pastor John: Andrew
Pastor Andy: John
Pastor Penny: Beloved
Pastor John: Beloved, I’m the beloved you just Andrew. [Pastor John laughing]
Pastor Andy: You were the one who told Jesus about, “Let the people eat.” But Andrew, there’s nothing much in the Bible about Andrew, but somehow he had some faith. Maybe that’s much. And Jesus said, “What have you got? You feed them.” And Andrew, I don’t know what he did with it. He grabbed the skit with the fish and chips, sandwiches or whatever, you know. And this little guy said, “Okay,” he must have given it to Him. He said, “This is all we’ve got.” Jesus said, “Well, that’s all I need.”
This is for somebody here today, it’s for me too. The little bit I’ve got is more than enough (emotional moment) – If I give it to Jesus. And of course Jesus is organized, sit them down in fifties and hundreds. You can imagine 30,000 people I mean, if you’ve ever been to Ellis Park, or one of these big stadiums, what an organization. Then the miracle of this whole thing, I mean, this is very funny, He breaks the five loaves and two fish and gives each disciple a piece. He must know klein stukkie. And I can imagine Peter going along to the first guy and said, “Hey take a little piece.” [Congregation laughing].
I don’t know what he did. And when he got to the end of the row, hey, he still had a little piece. Do you know the multiplication did not come in Jesus’ hands, it came in the disciples hands. When they started to give, and I mean you know you give in church. I mean, you guys are so generous here, you have blown me away. When they started to give the bread and the fish started to multiply. And they picked up 12 baskets full. I think He did that just to say to each disciple, “Look what we started with, and look what I could give you.” I don’t know what the little boy took home. But imagine the story he told his mother, I mean, those Bible stories …you must use your imagination, tell
Pastor John: And his friends, because he was a little boy, a little boy. Yeah. 10 years old, because he wasn’t yet a young man. So it must have been under the age of 12 to be called the little boy. So he went and told his friends, “You know what happened to me?”
Pastor Andy: I just want to bless you with that. I believe I’ve got five loaves and two fish. So have you. But if you give it to Jesus – 30,000 people, I believe there’s somebody sitting out right now, that’s maybe that’s just for you. That God’s going to take your five loaves and two fish and feed 1000’s of people.
Pastor John: Amen.
Pastor Andy: Why not? Imagine this congregation, we could change South Africa. You believe that? We’re not just stuck away here somewhere. Hey, what you were preaching last night, I don’t care what the Americans do, or President Biden or Vladimir Poetin, or Solinsky whatever his name is. Hey, you and I like Elijah, can one man, one man, stand up and say, “By My Word it shall not.” Amen.
Pastor John: Amen. You want to say something? In closing? Penny?
Pastor Penny: I think I’ve landed. But it’s been wonderful meeting you all. And really as Andy, I can only reiterate what Andy said, we have been blessed and blown away by the smiles that people have greeted us with, with the friendliness, with seeing the excellence in this church. And we were chatting to Brynn this morning and he says, when somebody says to him, “How are you?” He says, “I’m excellent.” I like that. I’ll take it home Brynn. You mind? Because we do everything to serve the Lord in an excellent way. And well done for being such a good example. Well done.
Pastor Andy: Die Here seen julle ryklik.
Pastor John: Well, actually, I wanted to close in prayer, but that is adequate. Die Here seen julle ryklik. And so come back later. And Andy is going to be preaching to us this afternoon. Hallelujah. Why don’t you just give them a hand and say, “Thank you very much. Andy and Penny, thank you. Thank you.” We’ll see you later everybody. Bless you. Thanks for your time. Wasn’t that wonderful? You got to know a little bit more about me so I’m hiding them away so you can’t ask them too many questions about me as a little boy, or whatever, you know.