Scripture reference: Matthew 16:15-18 NKJV; Hebrews 10:34; Ephesians 4:11
Pastor John: Well, Praise the Lord. It’s good to be here with you. Uh, It’s no coincidence that my beautiful wife and co labourer with me in the ministry, between this morning’s meeting and now, she is, the devil is trying to steal her health from her, so she’s in bed and I have already prayed for her. You can agree with me that she’s healed, and she’s whole and the weapon of sickness and disease will not, it’s formed against her, but it will not prosper, in Jesus’ name.
Pastor Christi: In Jesus’ name.
Pastor John: And so, so she’s not going to make it for this afternoon session or tonight unless God touches her body and she’s, gets up out of bed and shows up here. That can happen too, you know? Praise the Lord, Praise the Lord. But I did leave her in bed. So we are just going to carry on and the devil is not going to steal anything from us. Hey, Pastor Christi?
Pastor Christi: Not a thing, Pastor John. Yes. Amen, amen.
Pastor John: So we have, we have some things that we want to share with you about finance. I’m going to start off, Pastor Christi, we’re going to flow together. And I’m going to ask you to share some things that the Lord has given you. But it’s an interesting thing about money and it’s like, and you know, many people say, don’t talk about money in church, because churches, we talk about spiritual things. You don’t talk about natural things like money. You know, and some people even feel like money maybe is a dirty word in church, you know, because you shouldn’t speak about things like money, but they want the church to talk about lots of other things.
You know, relationships and they want to talk about love and they want to talk to them to talk about lots of things, but just don’t touch on money. It happened one day that ghee, many, many, many years ago, I was ministering in the Johannesburg church. And I actually had this conversation with the Joburg people, Pastor Christi. And I said, “You know, if I came here, and we all came to church, and nobody needed to tithe.”
Because God didn’t talk about tithing in the Bible, if, if you didn’t have to tithe, we would have far less problems in the church than we do have. Because number one, people have some reason to say tithing doesn’t actually apply to us today.
Pastor Christi: Right. That’s right, Pastor John.
Pastor John: So there’s all kinds of arguments about that. The other thing is that where sometimes when people do put money into the ministry, they feel like they have a right to have a say.
So that’s not somebody that’s got an open heart and a generous heart, about money. It’s normally someone who has a religious spirit, or the spirit of mammon on them, that’s got a lot to say about where the money should be talked about in the church or not. Needless to say, we go to work every day to earn money.
Pastor Christi: Money.
Pastor John: And so for something that is actually not part of our lives, we sure spend a lot of time getting it. Right, I mean, we come to church occasionally, but you go to church, to work every day,
Pastor Christi: Every day, every month.
Pastor John: And, and of course, work that is in God is a blessing and so it’s also something that is your worship. And so, obviously, whenever you talk about money, there is a, there is a big spectrum of people that have things to say about it. For us, money is a tool. It’s not, it’s not something that we seek to have because having more of it means we are more successful.
You know, money for us is a tool to be able to do things for God. Because if you measure your success by how much money you’ve got, then that measurement can change quite dramatically. You know, I mean, I sent Brother Jerry and Brother Joe, I sent them a message about the fact that, that the fuel bill is paid for, but it’s an estimate. And the reason it’s an estimate is because that fuel will be paid in dollars.
So, so by the time that, now to the time that they fly, the dollar, Rand exchange rate might change quite dramatically.
Pastor Christi: Absolutely.
Pastor John: And so, and so, you might, we might need to pay 25% more for fuel prices. Who knows what happens? Maybe the Middle East, war goes into, into downward spiral, and oil becomes more expensive? And so then your money becomes worth less. And then the dollar starts to make all kinds of things because of bad policies, and bad politics, and whatever. So money is not a way that you should measure success.
Pastor Christi: No, Pastor John.
Pastor John: Money should always be just a tool in your life. And so if, if it’s a tool, then it’s a tool for God to use, so that our life can be blessed. It’s not a tool for us. It’s not a tool for God to remove things from us.
Pastor Christi: No, no.
Pastor John: You know and so, if we accept that, as Christians, we are going to work and as Christians we are going to earn an income, then we have an opportunity to see the money that comes into our hands, through the eyes of God.
And when we begin to see money through the eyes of God, then we begin to see how God will use money that He placed in our hands, which is a very different way of saying, “It’s my money. It’s my money. If it’s my money, then you got nothing to say about it God, I will use it the way I want to use it.” But if it’s God’s money that’s just a tool in our hands, and He can use it as He wants, then that’s a powerful thing. Hey, Pastor Christi?
Pastor Christi: That’s powerful, Pastor John. That’s powerful.
Pastor John: And I know that one of the recent messages that you ministered you talked about the spirit of Mammon.
Pastor Christi: Yeah. Yeah.
Pastor John: And it comes from second. Well, I mean, they used to have temples that actually that were idol temples.
Pastor Christi: Yes, that’s right Pastor John.
Pastor John: You know, they used to have all manner of things that they that they would sacrifice at those temples, they would give offerings, they would give offerings to idols.
Pastor Christi: Yeah, Yeah. That’s right, that’s right.
Pastor John: And so, you know, it’s an amazing thing that we, as a people, when we bring our offerings, we’re not giving our offerings to idols. We’re giving our offerings to God and the people that receive them are men.
Pastor Christi: Yes. Yes that’s right.
Pastor John: You know, and that’s just the way it is on the earth.
Pastor Christi: Yes, it is, Pastor John.
Pastor John: So Pastor Christi, if we can if we can begin to talk about, about the church. And why? Why the church has a role to play in society, and why Jesus made a distinction between the synagogue and the ecclesia,
Pastor Christi: And the ecclesia. Absolutely. Pastor John. God made a big distinction.
Pastor John: Made a big distinction.
Pastor Christi: About the difference.
Pastor John: So I’m going to read this passage of Scripture in Matthew 16, verse 15, 15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:15-18 NKJV)
Pastor Christi: Yes.
Pastor John: So he was making a point about calling the church in that word. It’s the Greek word ‘ecclesia’. It’s not synagogues, it’s ecclesia. Share with us a little bit, Pastor Christi and your revelation of ecclesia. And perhaps, if you want to talk about it in a broader context, but maybe you want to bring it to money, but however you want to go.
Pastor Christi: Yeah Pastor John and I mean, it’s a revelation to all of us that church there is ecclesia, and it’s the assembly of God, but the called out ones of God. Actually, to overthrow what the called out ones of the enemy is doing in the world. So it is like we understand its governmental, and it is judicial. So it’s very, very important for all of us to have that revelation Pastor John, that that is what the word means. Very, very important. Yeah.
Pastor John: You know, those in those days, the ecclesia was a function and perhaps you can speak to this, Pastor Christi, you couldn’t be on the ecclesia, if you were just someone that lived in the city, or just was there to trade or something.
Pastor Christi: Correct. Just visiting, you could not, you should have been a local, planted there and then you have got a say Pastor John, in the place that God is planting you. You can’t just come and visit a place and then think you will have a say there.
Pastor John: Right.
Pastor Christi: That’s very, very important to understand.
Pastor John: So those days, if you were invited to the ecclesia it meant that you were a citizen that was recognized.
Pastor Christi: Yes, absolutely.
Pastor John: You were active and busy In the function of citizenry.
Pastor Christi: Yes. A citizen.
Pastor John: And all of those things that happened as a community. You were in the community. You were involved in the community.
Pastor Christi: Absolutely.
Pastor John: You had the interests of the community at heart.
Pastor Christi: Absolutely committed.
Pastor John: You were committed, you live there and have an invested interest.
Pastor Christi: Yes, Pastor John.
Pastor John: In actually wanting it to succeed.
Pastor Christi: Yes, in that place. Your interest and you’re committed, living there, not just visiting, not just passing by. But living there. So yes, very important, very important.
Pastor John: And so when Jesus actually used that scripture, that I will build my church, and when He said, “I will build my ecclesia.” He was, I mean, He was very specifically making a reference to the point that if you’re attending, if you are part of the ecclesia, it means you have a vested interest. It means you’re not just someone who, who occasionally comes and trades, in the church, or trades in the town, you had a vested interest in what was going on there.
Pastor Christi: Yes, that is right Pastor John.
Pastor John: I mean, Pastor Christi. It is, in my view, it’s just something that I’ve meditated on before when Jesus goes into the temple, and the money changes are trading in the temple and He overturns, their money things, part of what He was making a statement is, is He was saying, “My house should be a den of should be a house of prayer but you have made it a den of thieves.” In other words, what He was saying is that you’ve turned, you’ve turned the synagogue, even the synagogue, you’ve turned into a place of trading, which actually talks more to the ecclesia. But if you’re in the ecclesia, you’re actually trading illegitimately and illegally because you have no interest in what’s going on here.
Pastor Christi: Yes, Pastor John, it is that profound because the ecclesia and for us, the church and not the synagogue. If we understand and we do that God has called us to be a house of prayer, when you understand ecclesia then the house of prayer is actually the House of Parliament. So it is very, very significant to understand that Pastor John, because we legislate, we come together with the supply of our Spirit to come into agreement. So if you come in to trade or to do what you want to do, that’s, that’s very wrong Pastor John, we can’t do that because really it comes down to it’s a House of Parliament.
Pastor John: Yes. What was happening with Jesus, in that moment, He was saying, is you bringing your natural skills, your natural talent, your natural order of things, you are exchanging that, for an order, that is a spiritual order.
Pastor Christi: That’s right.
Pastor John: And you’re actually commercializing something that is the anointing and the sacred place of parliament, a heavenly parliament.
Pastor Christi: Heavenly Parliament.
Pastor John: You’ve actually just exchanged heavenly parliament for earthly talent or earthly skills.
Pastor Christi: Absolutely, Pastor John. That’s what happened there.
Pastor John: And so they were converting the earthly skills into money and changing money and Jesus said, “Hold on, this should be a place of heavenly parliament. heavenly legislation, heavenly ruling. And you guys are just here trading? You have no clue what you’re doing.”
Pastor Christi: Absolutely no clue what you are doing.
Pastor John: And that’s why He chased them out of the temple, because they were illegitimate in what they were doing.
Pastor Christi: Absolutely Pastor John and not discerning the ecclesia and the body of Christ in the correct way.
Pastor John: Right.
Pastor Christi: Coming to church for their own reasons and no, that’s a very dangerous thing to do Pastor John. It’s a very dangerous thing to do.
Pastor John: And so they were, they were essentially using the people that were coming to church with a pure heart. So the people will come into church with a pure heart and they and they needed things to to be able to, well, in those days, they needed to have offerings. So they were selling lambs, and they were selling things to the people who needed to make offerings and they were making profit out of it. And so essentially, what they did was they placed themselves in a position where they could trade in the church on other people’s passion, other people’s love for God, other people’s desire to do what God wanted them to do and had pure hearts – They were trading off that. When God said, “Because you’re trading here, you’re preventing these people from actually becoming the true ecclesia.”
Pastor Christi: Absolutely, Pastor John.
Pastor John: Because while you’re here commercialising the transaction the church can’t become the Ecclesia.
Pastor Christi: Absolutely Pastor John. Brother Copeland said that the place where God has planted you, that place is designed for you and you are designed for that place. And last night Brother Jerry said, “May you be blessed to be a blessing.” So, if you walk according to God’s ways, you will be a blessing but what’s the opposite of being a blessing? So what are you doing in that place?
Pastor John: Right.
Pastor Christi: Your part is affecting the whole body and that’s exactly what happened there, Pastor John. Yes, yes. Your part speaks. Your offering speaks but your part, what you do, is very, very important. Yes, spiritual or natural. Yeah.
Pastor John: I think if we recognise that Jesus was so focused on correcting the order, I mean, you know, it’s the one time where Jesus actually really, one could say was over-enthusiastic about using a word or anything, you know. I mean, He didn’t hold back.
Pastor Christi: No, He did not.
Pastor John: He didn’t hold back. I mean, He went out there and He overturned the tables; He chased them out the temple; He had a lot to say and He had a passion to bring the correct order of God back into the place of prayer.
Pastor Christi: Yes, Pastor John.
Pastor John: And sometimes it has felt like, for us, that when the Lord spoke to us in 2008 and said, “Build Me a house of prayer,” you know, we were at that time, we were quite focused on not having homecell groups or home groups, you know. That was, that was always something that was – churches were doing to make church more sort of fellowship-orientated and relational.
Pastor Christi: Yes, Pastor John. To come together that way.
Pastor John: To come together. And the Lord spoke to me very clearly and He said, “I don’t want you to start homecells. I want you to build me a house of prayer.” And it’s, I mean – thank God we did that.
Pastor Christi: Praise the Lord.
Pastor John: You know Pastor Christi, because we are an established order of prayer.
Pastor Christi: Yes, we are.
Pastor John: One can say this, this ministry is an order of prayer. You know, like they talk about the order of the knights, you know. We are the order of prayer that God has established.
Pastor Christi: Yes, we are.
Pastor John: And Jesus in that situation, with the money changers that were in the temple, I mean, He had the righteous anger of the Father God come upon Him to remove the trading and replace it with the order.
Pastor Christi: Amen.
Pastor John: And that is, in some ways that is the view that we need to have about money holistically.
Pastor Christi: Absolutely, Pastor John.
Pastor John: And the way that we need to see it is that God wants the order of our lives to be about His order and His business.
Pastor Chirsti: Yes, Pastor John.
Pastor John: And so, that’s the first thing we have to decide as a people – is we have to decide that we want God’s order for our lives. And we want to be disciples and walk in the order of God. Because the order of God is the thing that makes the difference as to how you use the money. And it’s the thing that, you know, a lot of people say, “I don’t mind having government rules and government laws,” you know. But the governance compact, function of this – I don’t like that. When people, when they have to live under the, when they are governed, you know. So they don’t mind laws but they don’t want to be governed.
Pastor Christi: Oh no, people don’t like that, Pastor John.
Pastor John: It’s like, I don’t mind there being a law of 120 but don’t stop me if I’m doing 140 on the highway, you know.
Pastor Christi: That’s right, that’s right, Pastor John.
Pastor John: And if you stop me, I might just get mad at you because you dare to stop me.
Pastor Christi: How dare you?
Pastor John: Because I’m doing 140.
Pastor Christi: How dare you?
Pastor John: On a 120.
Pastor Christi: Yes, how dare you?
Pastor John: And that’s actually, the minute that Jesus finished overturning the tables and chasing them out the temple, they began to ask the question, “On whose authority does Jesus do this?” Who gave Him the authority? And so, they were looking for the chief priest or they were looking for, you know, the person who had the highest authority in that area in their temple. “Did you give Him the authority to do this?” But He was clear, it wasn’t on the authority of man; it was on the authority of God that He was functioning.
Pastor Christi: That’s right, Pastor John. Absolutely.
Pastor John: And so, the Ecclesia for us is actually the order of God that we accept and then the order of God that we are prepared to live on the earth. You see it that way, Pastor Christi?
Pastor Christi: Pastor John, completely, completely. And I know for most of us now, some of us know more about it, but it’s a revelation that many are learning more of, Pastor John. You know, Pastor John, it’s a big thing that you are mentioning because, no, you’re right. Everything comes back to the order of God that must be in place for us to function. You know, in the message this morning that question that you have asked, and any spiritual leader should ask that, “Who am I to you?” Because you know, Pastor John, I think it’s Isaiah the third chapter when Israel did not obey God’s Word. God removed spiritual fathers and replaced it with children. Now what happened then was the lack of truth and the lack of revelation and the church has been in that condition for a very long time. And now we come to understand more about the Ecclesia. That’s why this thing is so big for us to get it. It’s very important.
Pastor John: Actually, the church has been functioning for so long as a gathering place of Christians rather than as a place of ruling Christians.
Pastor Christi: That’s right, Pastor John.
Pastor John: That we are trying to actually make up lost revelation if you like. We are trying to discover ourselves as a church that doesn’t have the full revelation of what a governing Ecclesia church looks like.
Pastor Christi: Correct, correct Pastor John. Correct.
Pastor John: And this is more important than we realise, Pastor Christi.
Pastor Christi: Yes it is, Pastor John. This is a huge matter.
Pastor John: I mean, this is a big deal to God.
Pastor Christi: It’s a big deal to God. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Pastor John: So there is, I mean, there is a component to this Ecclesia that is quite focused on recognising each other in the Ecclesia and recognising that we all have a part to play in the Ecclesia. And so, I’m going to read Hebrews chapter ten verse 24. Hebrews 10:24 and says, 24Let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works. Verse 25, 25not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together (Hebrews 10:24).
Pastor Christi: Yes.
Pastor John: So that stirring up to good works is, is partly to allow each other’s gifts to operate in the church. Because if we allow each other’s gifts to operate in the church, then when we come and assemble together, we come with the assembly, recognizing each other’s gifts, knowing that this assembly can actually become Ecclesia.
Pastor Christi: That’s right, Pastor John. Absolutely, yes, yes, correct.
Pastor John: And it’s one of the reasons why the enemy of God has tried to stop the church from meeting. Because of COVID, you know, he’s wanted to stop the church from meeting because if he can stop the gathering of the saints together, where there is churches that recognizes each other’s gift. Then he stops the authority of governing church on the earth.
Pastor Christi: Absolutely. That’s right Pastor John. No, that’s the truth.
Pastor John: Praise the Lord.
Pastor Christi: Yes. Hallelujah.
Pastor John: So I think, you know, if we, if we, start to begin to understand the fullness of this. The Bible says that we must not think about ourselves more highly than we ought. That’s any one of us and every one of us.
Pastor Christi: All of us.
Pastor John: It doesn’t matter what position we have.
Pastor Christi: It’s correct.
Pastor John: You know, in terms of, I’m the Pastor of the church, and someone else does something else in the church. You know, I should not be considering myself more highly. After all, even if I’m the Pastor of this church, I’m still just a vessel. I’m still just a messenger and I’m used by God.
Pastor Christi: Absolutely. Pastor John, every single one of us.
Pastor John: Every single one of us are a vessel and we are a vessel that must be used of God. This is important for us to recognize and when we talk about a financial growth point. This is the, this is the beginning of a financial growth point. Because we’re not even talking tithing yet. We’re not even talking offerings yet, or anything like that. We’re just talking about establishing the foundation of why we get together. And why when we get together, we actually are a people that should be functioning spiritually and if we don’t understand that we are what we are spiritually. Then all we do is we come together on a Sunday, and we just, we sing songs and we praise and we might say a prayer and we hear a good message and we go home and we say, “We had a good time in church.”
And if we come and we give our tithes, we say, well, you know, I’m committed to this church. But that’s, that’s just the beginning. It’s really just the beginning of it. I mean, the Church of God is a much more powerful thing than that. And actually, God is counting on the church to become something. He’s counting on us to become the manifested sons of God.
Pastor Christi: Yes, Pastor John.
Pastor John: So that the Earth can stop groaning.
Pastor Christi: Absolutely.
Pastor John: He’s counting on us to be the manifest sons of God.
Pastor Christi: Absolutely, counting on us. Absolutely Pastor John.
Pastor John: So if you think we’re not talking enough about money, when we’re talking about a financial growth point. That’s because actually, we have to kind of bring about a recalibration of, of what your money does, and why it does it, and why we are even meeting together. You know, and, to some extent, the enemy of God doesn’t want the real truth to come out.
Pastor Christi: That’s right Pastor John. The enemy does want to… no the enemy does want to.
Pastor John: Actually, we, we’ve been playing church for so long.
Pastor Christi: Very long Pastor John.
Pastor John: And I mean this in the kindest, in the kindest way. You know if we think that we are coming to church on Sundays, and coming to church on Sundays is what church is all about. And if we think we’re coming to church and we give our tithe, and that’s what church is all about. And if we think we’re actually even serving in the church a little bit and so we’re better than most.
Pastor Christi: Oh, yes.
Pastor John: We still are just playing church.
Pastor Christi: Yes, Pastor John, we are. Yeah, it’s not the right understanding about church. Everyone sitting here today has come with the supply of the Spirit and the power is in agreement. So when we pray for our nation, or God is releasing or saying anything, and someone sitting in their church, urg, in their chair, just sitting there and say, “Amen.” We are legislating Pastor John.
Pastor John: Yes.
Pastor Christi: It’s, it’s, it’s… that’s different than for the normal person what they think about church and coming to church. You’re right.
Pastor John: Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting that Jesus, before He even really started His ministry. Right in the beginning of His ministry, He sent out His disciples and He told them to go and preach the gospel. And He, and He told them, don’t take anything with you, but go and preach the good news, heal the sick, cast out demons. And if you find a house that’s worthy, remain there and leave your peace there. But if your house is not worthy, move out from that house and take your peace with you. How do you understand that Pastor Christi?
Pastor Christi: Oh Pastor John. (Pastor Christi laughing).
Pastor John: You knew I was going to touch a button on you right.
Pastor Christi: If Pastor Sharon was sitting here, she would tell you straight, now you’re pushing my buttons (Pastor Christi and Pastor John laughing). Well, Pastor John, that is, I think it’s Matthew 10. I’ve just mentioned earlier, I think why this whole understanding and revelation is so huge on the inside of me, is that I’m coming out of a background where I did not know these things. Really, I lacked a great deal of understanding about the Word of God. So when I mentioned earlier that when we do not obey the Word of God, like Israel did, but also New Testament.
God is replacing spiritual fathers and leaders with children. And then for a long time, I mean, it can be for generations, that we are without real truths and a father that can speak into our destiny. So most of us are coming out of a background like that Pastor John. And like you said, we’re not playing church. God’s not playing church. So this is a big deal. Pastor John. Yeah, it’s a big deal. And this is my heart on it Pastor John, let me just see, I think it’s Matthew 10. You know, Pastor John, for me, some people sitting here is not here, maybe 20 years like I am. But, and I’ve mentioned in the past, and people heard me saying this. When we came, and I saw you, that was a discernment in the spirit. It was not just me a person.
When I realized here is a legitimate spiritual leader and the one thing spiritually that I discerned immediately is, was, Thank You, Lord, I, there was a hunger in me to receive this kind of teaching, and impartation and revelation. And that goes for most of us sitting here today. So that’s big Pastor John, that’s very big for us to understand.
Pastor John: Yeah. I think I’m going to just, I’m just going to take on a little bit of what you said there Pastor Christi. Because if you, if you don’t know where God’s planted you. If you don’t know where God’s called you, you better find out quickly.
Pastor Christi: Very quickly, Pastor John.
Pastor John: Because actually, your whole destiny depends on it.
Pastor Christi: Your whole destiny.
Pastor John: And, and there in the Bible says there are many teachers, but there are not many fathers.
Pastor Christi: That’s correct.
Pastor John: And so you’re referring to that scripture because there’s a lot of people that can read the scriptures and teach many things.
Pastor Christi: And get himself a good book.
Pastor John: And get themselves a good book.
Pastor Christi: Absolutely. I’m one of those people Pastor John. Many audio tapes, many videotapes, many good books. But with no spiritual leader in my life that could speak into my life and according to Ephesians 4:11, where God gives the fivefold to equip you to be part of the ministry. And you know, Pastor John and sorry to interrupt like that. But coming back to Matthew 10. This urgency in my heart is, is in my heart for a very long time. Because God did send out those 12 apostles, actually, into a city into villages.
And God made it very clear. I’m sending you to go and give to them freely. But if they don’t recognize you, if they don’t know who you are, shake the dust off your feet. And that thing is in my heart for a long time, because this is what we have here. And there’s a real danger when we don’t listen to the Word of God, and we come to church, and we don’t understand ecclesia.
Just to think we can come and go as we like, God’s not playing church, He will remove that kind of leadership. Excellence in the supply of leadership from places if they do not understand what church is; the God of order. And God giving us gifts unto gifts. It seems these things are huge, very important. Yes, absolutely. And this is happening for all of us right now. God really wants to know, do you do you come to church, to want to know my Word, and to understand My order about all things, and coming into that order, be the ecclesia learn the things that you’ve got to learn. Because when I send a spiritual leader to a place. Is to teach you, is to train you, to equip you that you will no longer be children anymore. But that you can be the mature sons that God is really hoping that we will get to that place so that we can rule and reign with Christ Jesus.
Pastor John: Sometimes, Christian leaders, I myself sometimes find it challenging to talk about these things. Because, because if I talk about them, because I am a Christian leader, a spiritual leader in the church, it feels like I’m talking about myself so that I promote myself. You know, so sometimes it’s easier to have a Pastor Christi who has a revelation to talk about it. Because it’s not me talking about myself. But there is this component, which I think it doesn’t matter where you are listening to, you know, where you are listening to this, or what situation you find yourself in, whether you’re part of this church, or you listening from some other community. It is important that you are connected to a legitimate church and the legitimate leadership in that church.
So the question comes around this and for me Pastor Christi, it goes back to what we were talking about this morning, is when I said, I just felt this morning, I need to say something. You know, don’t call me Pastor, if I’m not your Pastor. Even if you, even if you’ve been in the church a while, and I’m not your Pastor, if I’m not pastoring you and you don’t accept pastoring from me then don’t call me Pastor. And I say, if I’m not your Pastor, and you don’t recognize me as your Pastor, then rather go somewhere else where you have the recognition of someone that is your Pastor. Because you’re in the wrong place. And, you’re not only damaging yourself, but you’re damaging us. Because you’re in the wrong place. And so you’re out of order by being in the place you shouldn’t be. But it goes to this point and it goes to the point of legitimacy.
Who legitimizes a leader, who legitimizes a leader. And so ultimately, what Jesus did in Matthew, and Matthew 10, a scripture is that when He sent them out, He placed His authority on them. So He legitimize their right for them to go and preach. And He gave them the authority to go and do it.
Pastor Christi: That’s right.
Pastor John: So I know that we have, we have medical doctors in our church and they, they go to university, and they study for years, and they go through a lot of training to get understanding of what they must do. But despite all their training, they have to become part of a body that licenses them to trade as a doctor.
Pastor Christi: Yes.
Pastor John: Without that license, they’re not legitimate. They have to have a license. It’s the same with the legal profession, or the accounting profession. You go through articles or you go through a training period as well as the study period. Then you go to go and write a bar exam or an accounting exam and then you get a piece of paper that says, this body says that you are authorized, you are legitimate to exercise in your field.
Pastor Christi: Excellent.
Pastor John: But so the church has looked to try and do that. And the way they’ve tried to do that over the over the years is to say, “Well, if you go to the cemary to read or this theological Bible school, then five years or four years or seven years of Bible training, legitimizes you to preach and teach the Gospels.”
Pastor Christi: That is right, Pastor John.
Pastor John: But actually, that’s not that’s not the license you need.
Pastor Christi: No.
Pastor John: So unfortunately, there are a lot of churches that say, that’s the license you need. But the license you need is the one that God gives you.
Pastor Christi: Yes, Pastor John.
Pastor John: He places the mantle on you, He places the coat of calling upon you, and says, “I give you this calling.”
Pastor Christi: Yes.
Pastor John: And so it’s very important actually, that in the church there is this understanding it certainly was that way for me. I grew up in a denominational setting where you lived with the elders and the pastor of the church. And the elders and the deacons and the pastor of the church they watched you and they would see you and they would get a sense of your understanding of the word and the discipleship of your life and the way that you are committed to God and on the basis of they recognized the call of God on you, they would mentor you and train you so that you would go into the ministry. There wasn’t this thing you had to and get a degree, they watched you live a disciple’s life.
Pastor Christi: Develop as a believer.
Pastor John: And so if we are talking about our church here, you have to settle it in your heart that Pastor Sharon and I are legitimate leaders. Because if you can’t and don’t settle it in your heart that we are legitimate leaders, spiritually legitimate. I don’t really care what people say.
Pastor Christi: That’s right Pastor John.
Pastor John: I only care as much as if they are disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ and if they have something worthwhile to say according to the word, you know, then I do care what you say because I’m looking for truth everywhere, through every gift. But if you just want to have a criticism about our legitimacy then I have to say well okay I can take you lets go walk, I can take you back to all of the people that I know that grew up in a church. I was in for 19 years where I served as an usher, I served as a home cell leader, I served as a zone pastor leader. I served, I did a whole lot of things I was on the financial board of the church and then they started to invite me to become pastor of the church, one of the pastors of the church because they recognized, not that I went to do the bible school, I did that but that’s not what made you legitimate.
It was that they recognized through all your doings that the call of God is there. And so then when the Lord called me to brother Jerry, my one request was I wanted my pastor to legitimize my leaving so that he could legitimize my re-entry from the church to the ministry with Brother Jerry. Because If I didn’t have a legitimate handing over of the calling then I couldn’t enter into the next phase legitimately. And so that’s what happens to a lot of people is that they just leave churches because they don’t like what‘s going on in the church so they don’t have a legitimate exit point, because who gave you the judgement factor of what’s a legitimate church. And if you recognized that pastor as a legitimate pastor, why did you leave him. So then maybe you weren’t called to him as the pastor, well then you should have had some honest discussions with him about why you there what you’re doing there and why you’re not there.
Pastor Christi: Right, Pastor John,
Pastor John: You know that’s the kind of thing that makes ecclesia.
Pastor Christi: Yes. That makes the ecclesia. That’s right.
Pastor John: And so, for me, I say, my Pastor said, “I release you into the fullness of your ministry.” Brother Jerry, he connected with my pastor and he said, “We’re okay, you’ve released him, you blessed him, I receive him.” So then, Brother Jerry, first thing he said, John, come to America. We flew over to America. We sat in a in a church service. And then on the first night of the service, he called us up in front of his board of directors, his people and he said, “I’m now ordaining Pastor John and Sharon into the ministry.” If you have a problem with me, then you must have a problem with Brother Jerry. And all of the elders that he has around him. If you have a problem with Brother Jerry, then you must also have a problem with Brother Copeland. And all of the elders around him. Then you also had a problem with Oral Robertson, Kenneth Hagin, and then I think the problem is not with them anymore. Right?
So I’m mentioning this because in an ecclesia, you have to recognize that the ecclesia is constituted properly. It has to have the proper levels of authorities. If you don’t have that, then you can’t function. Which is why Jesus had to send His disciples in His name. And He had to give them specific instructions so that wherever they went, they were constituted properly. So before we perhaps take a break in a few minutes here, let’s just talk for a minute about this whole matter and perhaps, you know, you can share your part on it as a matter of how much authority they had to take their peace with them and if they took their peace with them, or they left their peace on them. What did that mean in terms of their blessing or they’re cursing?
Pastor Christi: Correct, Pastor John. Well pastor John I have no doubt about that. Because God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. And if we see the pattern from the old testament to the New Testament, when and here it’s right in front of me. Verse 11, from Matthew 10 says, Now, whatever city or town they enter, it means God is sending them, and households or churches are going to receive them and when we see what God did in the past, when God’s giving people that opportunity to come, and to be part of a legitimate ecclesia, then we have to do our part. And of course, the calling of the sent ones is very important. But all believers Pastor John, it’s not difficult for a true believer, a born again, believer, to stand at that point and to know that you’re standing in front of a sent one, right? Someone that God is sending. So if you don’t want to be planted there and you, you come with your own agenda, you are looking for a platform in the church, then very, very quickly, that will become evident, right, that you do not want to be accountable. You do not honor God and Jesus, the head of the church. And it will become very, very quickly evident Pastor John, because it’s Jesus the head of the church and it’s His older, and it’s His pattern and by the Holy Spirit, we discern.
Pastor John: Exactly, yes. And isn’t it interesting that Jesus connected the blessing and the recognition of authority to money, provision. Because He said, if you go there, and they receive you, stay with them, let them meet your needs. But if you find in the process of them meeting your needs, and listening to you, you find them worthy, then leave your peace there and move on. And so that wasn’t that wasn’t just, okay be at peace, guys. This was we leave, blessing with you. And when we leave blessing with you, we leave with you the capacity to receive truth. We leave with you the capacity to receive Jesus as Lord when the time comes. We leave with you the capacity to have the light and the life of God come to your town, come to your household. But if they did not receive them as legitimate sent ones, then we feeding you but we don’t like what you’re saying here.
Pastor Christi: Correct.
Pastor John: Wipe the dust of that town off your feet, and actually, if you take your peace with you, then it meant that they, there was a vacuum there, and there is no capacity to receive truth.
Pastor Christi: No capacity to receive truth.
Pastor John: There is no capacity to recognise life, there is no capacity to receive truth, there is no capacity to receive the order of God into that town. So it wasn’t just a little thing of, be at peace. You know, it was, everything was at stake here if they didn’t receive you.
Pastor Christi: Everything.
Pastor John: And the provision was directly connected to it.
Pastor Christi: Everything was at stake Pastor John. No – because you know Pastor John, there is so many huge components to what we are talking about here. You started to talk about the Ecclesia, for all the gifts to come together. Now this passage of Scripture makes it very clear that God said to them, you go without the money belt.
Pastor John: That’s right.
Pastor Christi: Now, we are touching on a little bit of a different component in the sense of Pastor John that there is a grace for a place.
Pastor John: Yes.
Pastor Christi: So, this is what God is sending them for. But we have other gifts in the body of Christ, that’s called for other things. So God makes it very clear, you go and what you have received, go and give it to them.
Pastor John: Right.
Pastor Christi: So, first of all, that’s truth, is impartation of Truth and Revelation coming to any place, and people where God is sending them. But then alongside that legitimate spiritual leader comes all the other gifts.
Pastor John: Right.
Pastor Christi: And they are standing in the grace for their place.
Pastor John: That’s right.
Pastor Christi: To bring and do their part. So Pastor John, God is very specific in this passage of scripture that He did not allow these apostles to go with their money belts.
Pastor John: Yes.
Pastor Christi: You know, I was smiling when I was reading it again and again – He did not allow them to go with their houses, or their cars, it says, “You should take nothing.”
Pastor John: Right.
Pastor Christi: Meaning the places where I am sending you, those gifts that will come alongside you, will absolutely come and be activated to do their part. And that is where we need to understand that this thing about the Ecclesia, for us as a people coming together, each gift that God so desires, is really, very, very important. Because if we don’t do that, and that leader is being taken away from us, and God will surely do that.
Pastor John: Yes.
Pastor Christi: It will leave that vacuum.
Pastor John: Yes.
Pastor Christi: Of first of all truth and revelation, for sure. For sure.
Pastor John: I mean, the story of Jesus and Lazarus, is actually ag I mean not Lazarus. Zacheus – the story of Jesus and Zacheus is a very powerful story because here was a man who had quite a lot of money. He was a wealthy man. Let’s just put this in modern day terms. He was a stock broker, insurance broker and financial manager.
Pastor Christi: Absolutely.
Pastor John: Investment manager, he was all about money. His whole life was taking money from people, giving some money to Rome, paying them at the right time, not paying them too much, paying the … his whole thing, his whole life was about money. Zacheus. Jesus comes into town and Zacheus has heard Him talking and heard about Jesus. So he climbs with his very fine garments and climbs up a tree because he recognises there is something in this man that is triggering me.
Pastor Christi: Yes.
Pastor John: Financial gift, financial manager – blessed with the ability to make money.
Pastor Christi: That’s right. That’s right Pastor John.
Pastor John: That’s what it was.
Pastor Christi: That’s what it was.
Pastor John: Blessed with the ability to make money.
Pastor Christi: That’s right. That gift.
Pastor John: That gift, that gift was in Zacheus.
Pastor Christi: To operate in that gift. Absolutely.
Pastor John: So that gift without Jesus being there, did whatever he thought was best for him. Jesus comes on the scene, he recognises that this man’s gift is looking for a purpose.
Pastor Christi: Yes.
Pastor John: This man’s gift is looking for Ecclesia.
Pastor Christi: Yes.
Pastor John: This man’s gift is looking for Authority.
Pastor Christi: Yes, Pastor John.
Pastor John: So, He looks up and says, Zacheus, come down, I’m coming to your house for tea. The minute that the gift met the Gift to the gift, the minute he met the Originator of his gift, he said, “I will sort all the money matters out in my life. If I owe money to anybody, I’m going to give them back four times the amount I owe them. I am just going to sort all the money out in my life. The Money that controlled me, because I am a money maker, will not control me anymore.”
Pastor Christi: Amen.
Pastor John: And Jesus said to him, “Today, salvation has come to you and to your household.”
Pastor Christi: Yes.
Pastor John: What happened there? I mean, Jesus was just another man. He hadn’t died yet and gone to the cross yet. Jesus was a good man, a Teacher, a Rabbi.
Pastor Christi: A good man.
Pastor John: Many people called Him that. A Rabbi, a Teacher, maybe some people even said He was a Prophet.
Pastor Christi: Sure, they did.
Pastor John: But Zacheus certainly didn’t know Him as Messiah.
Pastor Christi: No Pastor John.
Pastor John: But when the originator of Gifts came into his house, he immediately said: “My money; the order of money in my life has been out of place.”
Pastor Christi: It’s wrong.
Pastor John: And I now, immediately fix it.
Pastor Christi: That’s right Pastor John.
Pastor John: Right now.
Pastor Christi: That’s right. That’s right.
Pastor John: Right now. Hash tag, right now.
Pastor Christi: At once.
Pastor John: At once.
Pastor Christi: At once. At once.
Pastor John: Hash tag, at once. Hash tag, right now.
Pastor Christi: That’s right. Yes, Pastor John.
Pastor John: I mean, that’s what he did. He said, “At once I am going to fix all of this.”
Pastor Christi: Yes.
Pastor John: And when Jesus saw and that He recognised, He had to be able to recognise that here’s a man of spiritual authority standing in front of me.
Pastor Christi: Yes.
Pastor John: Otherwise, what’s the purpose of spilling my guts about all my money matters to a man that has got no authority?
Pastor Christi: None.
Pastor John: Nobody is going to do that.
Pastor Christi: Nobody. Nobody will Pastor John.
Pastor John: I mean, if you are talking about money, you’re talking about people’s livelihood and the very intricacies of how they make money.
Pastor Christi: And specially the big decisions.
Pastor John: Especially the big decisions.
Pastor Christi: Oh yes. Don’t touch that.
Pastor John: Why must I talk to you if you have no authority?
Pastor Christi: That’s right Pastor John.
Pastor John: And it is just like that with people who know how to make money, it’s a secret they guard.
Pastor Christi: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Pastor John: Yeah, because I don’t want you to know my secret how I make money in case you come and steal my secrets and make more than me.
Pastor Christi: Exactly.
Pastor John: And perhaps take my money that I’ve been making.
Pastor Christi: Pastor John, on the dot.
Pasto John: On the dot.
Pastor Christi: On the dot.
Pastor John: So, for Jesus to come into a money makers house and this guy to say to Him, “Hey, listen, I’m going to fix all my money matters.” He was saying, I recognize Your authority to bring order into my whole life, not just my money.
Pastor Christi: Pastor John, that’s the truth.
Pastor John: But because I’m about money, I’m going to bring my money into order. And then Jesus says, “Because you bring your money into order under the authority of the originator of gifts under the head of ecclesia you and your household will be saved.”
Pastor Christi: Amen. That’s right Pastor John.
Pastor John: Wow.
Pastor Christi: Wow
Pastor Christi: What hit him Pastor John, Jesus the Head of the church, His order.
Pastor John: His order.
Pastor Christ: I will send you gifts before He went back to His heavenly Father. He said, “Now I give the fivefold ministry.” What we know it is to equip you but when you encounter that anointing, you encounter Jesus.
Pastor John: Yes.
Pastor Christi: And that’s why I say as a believer born again, believer, by the, by the help of the Holy Spirit, you recognize that.
Pastor John: Yeah.
Pastor Christi: Zacchaeus absolutely recognize that and we do.
Pastor John: And so, thank you for that Pastor Christi, because, and we need to take a break here but the fact is, that’s, that’s the challenge that all of the religious leaders had with Jesus that kept on asking him, by whose authority do you say this?
Pastor Christie: It’s right.
Pastor John: By whose authority do you do this? Who gives you the right to say this? Jesus, when He sent His disciples out, when He sent them without money belts, He said, “This whole thing is going to be about whether people recognize that you have authority.”
Pastor Christi: Yes.
Pastor John: And if they don’t recognize that you come with authority, then you can’t leave your peace with them. Because they don’t recognize that you have authority.
Pastor Christi: That’s right Pastor John.
Pastor John: In our experience, Christi, and you’ve been around me and Pastor Sharon, now for 20 years about and there were some of those years that you didn’t really know who we were.
Pastor Christi: Absolutely.
Pastor John: You saw the call of God on our lives, but you didn’t understand the church and the fullness of the ecclesia and all this stuff that you now understand.
Pastor Christi: Correct Pastor John.
Pastor John: But, but in the end that comes down to this, and I’ve witnessed it and you’ve witnessed it with me. If people (no audio sound) form of intervention to the recognition of authorities, then you find that the order that’s in their lives begins to chaos begins to happen.
Pastor Christi: Completely Pastor John.
Pastor John: The order is no longer there.
Pastor Christi: No, the order is no longer there.
Pastor John: I mean, you know, I use the story with Brother Jerry because, because it’s his story. I have my own stories, but I prefer not to talk about my own stories.
Pastor Christi: Yeah.
Pastor John: Because I, I am in a local church. And so, and so often it has to do with people that I do know, or I did know.
Pastor Christi: That’s right Pastor John.
Pastor John: You know, so his stories helped me to, to, to use the example. But in the early years of Brother Copeland ministry. You heard in one of the messages that Brother Jerry said to us, you know, in the early years, he was Kenneth Copeland Ministries. There was no one else in Kenneth Copeland Ministries. He was Kenneth Copeland Ministries.
Pastor Christi: He was, he was Pastor John.
Pastor John: He was the whole staff.
Pastor Christi: He was the whole staff.
Pastor John: He was the driver, he was the duplicator.
Pastor Christi: All by himself.
Pastor John: A sound system engineer, he was tapes.
Pastor Christi: He carried the tapes.
Pastor John: He carried the tapes.
Pastor Christi: Everything.
Pastor John: He was everything and then brother Copeland Ministries grew a bit and he and there were a couple of guys that were sitting in the office and, and they were duplicating stuff and they were bad mouthing Brother Copeland you know, and Brother Jerry said, “Hey, you guys shouldn’t be talking like this about your boss.” You know, and then the Lord, Brother Copeland was in prayer and the Lord allowed him to hear what they were saying in the spirit. And so, he walked in, and he said, “You guys, take your stuff and go.” And then he said to Brother, Jerry, you know,”Let this be a warning to you too.” But of course, that wasn’t in brother, Jerry’s heart.
Pastor Christi: That’s right Pastor John.
Pastor John: He was already on the other side of the fence.
Pastor Christi: He was, he was. Correct.
Pastor John: But the whole thing about it was, if you, it is just this way which is why I started, I started the message that we had this morning, and even now, I have to say, God uses men.
Pastor Christi: Yes, yes.
Pastor John: And if He’s chosen to use me as a vessel, as a legitimate spiritual authority and leader, I am accountable to God, with so much accountability eternally, that everybody that I must lead their purpose and their life is on me is.
Pastor Christi: Yes, yes.
Pastor John: When I stand before God, if I have not taught something that should have been taught, or I have taught something that, that I should not have taught, whether I leave something out, or whether I put something extra in there. God holds me responsible. He’s given me the direct instruction to be a watchman over your souls. That’s hey, do not ask for that if that’s not what God wants you to do.
Pastor Christi: Absolutely Pastor John.
Pastor John: You know because you are on dangerous territory.
Pastor Christi: Yes.
Pastor John: If that is what you think you want to do?
Pastor Christi: Yes, that is right.
Pastor John: You know, I mean, I go to sleep at night. And I said, “Lord, I thank God, that I met someone like Kenneth Hagin.” And I mean, he used to say this, you know, “Shepherds, ministers of the gospel should never be ministering without the leading and the gifts of the Holy Spirit at work.” Because it’s such a big job. You cannot just do it out of natural wisdom. You know some things you can give an answer to. Because natural wisdom is required. But for the most part, you have to take a spiritual stand and let God do the things that He needs to do.
Pastor Christi: Yes, you have got to hear from God. That’s right Pastor John.
Pastor John: Yeah.
Pastor Christi: Yeah.
Pastor John: And so, when we, when we come back after the break, we’re going to talk about, we’re going to talk about offerings. We’re going to talk about the money side of it. But there’s no point in us talking about money without ecclesia.
Pastor Christi: That’s right Pastor John.
Pastor John: Because the reason why money is actually an important thing is because God has established the church. And, if you take money out of the church, then a big thing about what the church is called to do is to actually correct the financial system.
Pastor Christi: Yes.
Pastor John: So, let me make this big statement in closing. Capitalism is not of God. I’ve said this before, socialism, and communism, or any other -ism, economically, is not a God ordained structure. The God ordained economic structure is given to His people in the Bible.
Pastor Christi: Amen.
Pastor John: And if we all did what the Bible said, then we would have the proper economic system by which we should actually do business.
Pastor Christi: That’s right.
Pastor John: Amen.
Pastor John: We will take a 10 minute break and then we will come back. Amen.
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